Batting for the other team

viva · 14-05-12 02:56:37

Thanks HW. That was much more succinct than I could accomplish!

blissed · 14-05-12 03:45:55

The very word correctable means it hasn't been corrected but can be and I don't think it's impossible. You have to acknowledge something to reject it. I'm not ignoring the problem by rejecting the ideas that cause it. I think the suggestion that I am is ridiculous. I really don't see the point of what your both saying other than making rather insulting assumptions about me and that I somehow haven't grasped the problem and thought about how to solve it and don't do anything about it and you have and do. I can't see how you can further the cause of feminism by insulting the intelligence of someone who is passionately feminist.

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viva · 14-05-12 04:05:51

Sorry, Blissed, if you felt insulted, that was certainly never anyone's intention.

jane_e · 14-05-12 05:04:44

Ah. I don't even know where to begin. A part of me gets so frustrated reading this stuff. Most of the time I don't notice that glass ceiling. It's so far away -- paper thin and floating. But sometimes its close and heavy -- thicker then I am tall. And in those moments its crushing weight makes me want to scream a big F you to pretty much anyone who's opinion will be valued more then mine, who will be hired before me, who will be paid more then me, promoted more quickly then me, invited to more company golf games, poker games and ball games then me just because they happen to have a [expletive deleted] penis. No matter how nice they may be. Feminist they may be. Conscious of privilege and understanding they may be. I want to hate them. There is something inside of me I can't stop from screaming.

Life as a women in a male dominated field isn't really so bad, but sometimes it can be as isolating and frustrating as it is empowering and awesome and just pleasantly and perfectly normal.

Unfortunalty, for every great role model (female and male and (Blissed, this is for you) non-gendered) out there we have women like a few of the aforementioned and this real gem who talks about equal pay to, on top of all of this, make us (maybe its just me) feel guilty for not being assertive enough to get paid as much as our male counterparts, for being too nice, too well dressed, or not well dressed enough.

Bah.

Anyways.

Rant finished.

viva · 14-05-12 05:20:09

I think it's important to remember that being a feminist isn't the same as being a woman, just like not being a racist isn't the same as being brown. And that everyone, without exception, should expect and be willing to be called out on their privilege - regardless of how marginalized they consider themselves. Otherwise what is the point of any discussion - Jane will still be feeling frustrated at work, despite how many men consider themselves feminists at this moment in time, and someone else will be looking at Jane and feel frustrated that she has advantages they don't.

If the feminist-identified men protest that they are feminists so it's not their fault, and Jane protests that she worked hard for what she has too so it's not her fault, regardless of the verity of those answers, the voice of the marginalized person is still not being accepted or heard over the roar of defensiveness. And that is problematic to me and I suspect that is why privilege is both such an important concept and such a goddamned hard nut to swallow.

aven frey · 14-05-12 06:23:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-7fibt4DU8

I wont pretend to know what Patti is doing with this song (she didn't write the lyrics) but I don't think it's a about the glory of prayer. I might just leave it here and say I blame god and the wasps who invented him.

Blissed if the ladies wanted to insult your intelligence they certainly wouldn't have engaged so intelligently with you! : )

Carrying on from some of what Viva ('rich kids slummin' etc) was saying often there's a fabulous and creative energy that comes with kicking against the pricks and peeps who can see why the pricks need to be kicked and or desperately don't want to be a prick desire to be a part of this energy (be it a movement or just a discussion) but can feel isolated when they feel like their voice counts for less.

For many people who don't enjoy certain privileges the reality of their lived experience is spoken for them but not by them and this is a function of the power of privilege and is one of the first frontiers when addressing this enormous swamp land.

And this is where Jarvis comes in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqgXzPfA … re=related

When I was a teenager I loved this song, so, so much. I wasn't English but I was certainly the Australian equivalent of common and it made me feel less shit about some of the things I thought I didn't have because it made very aware for the first time that sometimes adversity, whatever form it takes can give you other things that might fill in some of the gap of what I thought I didn't have. And I found that inspiring and empowering, and that's important.

Jane, that link is hilarious and your rant was great! Bah indeed.

aven frey · 14-05-12 06:57:43

and this

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html

HollyWood · 14-05-12 07:49:38

Blissed, this was certainly not a personal attack nor was I suggesting that you don't grasp the topics discussed here, but rather that your position in this bottomless pit of glass-ceiling despair is not the same as a womans. It's only an experiential matter which i think we've discussed in detail.

I think Viva, you summed it up with the 'roar of defensiveness' that actually deafens people to the fights not yet fought. That pushes responsibility further and further into the aether so that eventually it's NO-ONE'S responsibility rather than EVERYONE'S.

blissed · 14-05-12 18:38:01

Hollywood because I empathise, that my experience is different from yours is in the very meaning of the word empathy and is obvious. To suggest that that needs explaining to me is what feels insulting.

Viva, what you've been saying feels very alienating so thanks for apologising. I think if we're feminist we should stick together and support each other regardless of what sex we are. Empathy means your not the other person but you feel their pain and your moved enough to act. That I'm dual gendered shapes how I see femininity and that it's awesome and undervalued and it very much helps the part of me that's masculine to empathise. So it helps, but I don't need to be this way to see that, or to see obvious unfairness.

People have said where do we go from here, and I keep saying about Jane Bond and half the narratives should be about women's lives, and though narratives seem frivolous they're not, (women are spies in reality after all) We spend half our time watching or reading narratives and they have an enormous effect on us,

The other thing is if women haven't got full control of their reproductive health, then they haven't got full control of their career and their partners career will tend to take precedence. Where I am, needing 2 doctors to sign off an abortion is a constant humiliation, and we're humans, all the humiliations build into anger as expressed by Jane. (though if it was me I'd pass on the fascist golfing trips

This is a good talk by Sheryl Sandberg about becoming leaders. If we had good narratives I don't think we'd need the talk, and a doc about my current boss would illustrate someone who seems to naturally put much of what Sheryl is reccomending into practice.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/sheryl … aders.html

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Last edited by blissed (15-05-12 00:19:23)

HollyWood · 15-05-12 01:01:21

blissed wrote:

From my own experience both in my head and my observations of other people the sexes aren't polarised unless they want to fit themselves into their allotted mythical status.
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I understand the details of empathic engagement perfectly and I don't doubt for a moment that you empathize with the women-folk of the world who struggle. I am simply baffled by your above quote because your observation that the sexes aren't polarised unless people CHOOSE to fit themselves into that dichotomy is shaped by your masculine experience. You are in a position where you CAN choose to fit into that mythical status or not and it's alot harder for women because that status is chosen for them at birth and is reinforced by culturalising practices.

Please don't feel like I am insulting your intelligence because that was never my intention.

Last edited by HollyWood (15-05-12 01:02:11)

viva · 15-05-12 01:46:46

I think HW's point is valid again - there's nothing mythical about inequality. It exists and it sucks.

It seems we are saying the same thing again and again: everyone needs to accept their privilege regardless of where they stand.

If we continue this discussion I hope that it is just that - a conversation with no offense given or taken. I think a hard nut to swallow (accepting your own privilege) is exactly what many feminists need in order to gather together and support each other - not just the righteous ones, but the humble ones who allow for other voices to be heard and valued. Support means calling each other out sometimes - ideas like "everyone ought to accept their privilege in order to continue x conversation" are what make feminism more inclusive - not less. It's how we grow more - not less - tolerant.

Accepting your privilege is not the end of the world, and it doesn't make you more separated from everyone else. It makes us all closer - like when you're having a fight and you just say to your partner - "You're right." Giving way just that little bit often clears the air for more depths of actual understanding.

I also feel that this process is something which happens gradually and honestly, I have not really "gotten there" myself. And Blissed, you may have, I don't know. So, please don't mistake my ruminations for personal demands of what you should or shouldn't do to be a true feminist. Even if I did want to demand anything, what do I know? I'm happiest barefoot, wearing bruises while I give head under the kitchen table. I am quite out of place at many feminist gatherings, and quite happily in place at other feminist gatherings. Being a feminist only means what you want it to mean, really.

I write all of this not to tell anyone how to think, but because it helps me actualize my concept of privilege and the importance of it for me, and how I can turn both ways, all ways, and see myself reflected in different ways in the eyes of others - others who are more and less privileged than I. There aren't many more privileged than I in my own worldview - I am lucky to not be someone who has felt held back or trodden upon by any male patriarchy or anyone at all, really. Still I am aware that male privilege exists - but other than that I consider that it's generally my place to listen and to think about what is being said and try to take something valuable from it, for myself - although tbh I draw the line at Girl Writes What. fer crissakes.

ok viva out.

blissed · 15-05-12 02:44:37

Holywood if your not digiing at me pointlessly then what's with the CAPITAL LETTERS

I was talking there about gender polarisation not the relative dificulty of different people who want to rejecti their socially alotted gender status. As we're now talking about that, yes broadly I agree with you, since I've stated that I'm feminist why do you think I wouldn't, and think you NEED TO TELL ME THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's what I mean by insulting. And I say broadly agree because it's not as black and white, as polarised or as simple as you characterize.

Lets walk out into the street together. You wear trousers and I'll wear a dress and lets see who has the harder time of it. A woman being masciline or a man being feminine. The answer is to varying degrees and depending on what we did we both would. It's not polarised or simple. For most people who want to reject aspects of, or their entire alotted social gender status, it's not just a question of choice, it takes a degree of courage.

My honest opionion is that this part of the conversation regarding privilege has been pointlessly divisive.

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Last edited by blissed (15-05-12 02:50:55)

HollyWood · 15-05-12 02:51:54

I think we're talking about different things now. Sorry if i offended you. I'm extracting myself from this thread! It was also never my intention to make this argument black+white because it's not!

viva · 15-05-12 03:19:14

If you are taking continuous personal offense during an intellectual debate after being told repeatedly that none is intended, please step back from the conversation and let your emotion subside. Hollywood was clearly using caps for emphasis and not in an offensive way. I would like this to remain a constructive and polite venue. Thanks.

blissed · 15-05-12 12:14:01

HollyWood wrote:

Sorry if i offended you.

Thanks Hollywood

Viva to me caps are shouting, emphasis is in bold. None of us are perfect and whatever is meant by a text communication, at the time it's read it stands on it's own and has an effect.. I was told stuff I passionatly advocate for as if I'd never heard of it and that as I look male I can choose to do as I please, when that simply isn't the case. I offer empathy and support and it looked like that was being devalued and thrown in my face. So I was offended. Being unaware of the sensitivities when talking about a subject that directly effect a person we're talking to, and how it emotionally effects them has happened here before, I''ve done it myself and always apologised and people have on this occasion too.

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Last edited by blissed (15-05-12 12:30:14)

viva · 16-05-12 01:42:09

Anyway, it's time for something fun like COSMOCKING!!

Well it's not exactly, but speaking of batting for the other team! This article is funny! They made a pun. Armpit hair is the pits! Ha! Ha! That's funny!

The article starts like this : "You have to hand it to Emer O’Toole." And then proceeds to hand it to her, all right - mercilessly mocking Emer for being incredibly pretty, if only it weren't for her "underarm beards that would have made Osama bin Laden proud."

Yikes.

The article doesn't beat around the bush (now I made a joke! Ha!) - it goes on to say that, "Watching [Emer], [the author] nearly parted company with [her] breakfast."

Some other fun gems - "Hairiness is just unfeminine."

Oh Daily Mail, I love it when you help define those big words for me.

Here's a good one - "If only men knew the way to tell if a woman is losing interest in them is how often she has her bikini line waxed or shaves her legs. Body hair is clear signal you’re not interested in sex — with him, anyway."

IF ONLY! IF ONLY THEY KNEW! I am imagining hairless girls, touching their silky legs and longingly staring at the objects of their affection.. flexing a toe... keeping one elbow in the air... slooooowly plucking the hairs from ehr arms... finally, shaving her HEAD! And that boy still doesn't say hello - what, is he deaf or something!? This woman is practically SHOUTING her hairlessness and he does not pay attention

MEN!

Also definitely be aware that my eyebrows being kinda fuzzy the way they are today, and the peach fuzz on my breasts, are definite indicators that I will never, ever want sex. So until I'm non-allergenic, you better stay away - because I obviously do not feel my vagina until I feel every slight breeze or whispered conversation had within 10 metres of it.

snrt!! I wanna dance around with my pits out all over that golden goddess of a talkshow host.

Here, after you got your panties in a twist reading all that vitriolic daily mail nonsense, come over here to the hairy pits tumblr club to enjoy some happy hairy ladies, starting with the ever beautiful liandra.

HollyWood · 16-05-12 03:54:13

we should get a group photo of us at the office with our hairy pits. all in a line - lookin' fine.

artemesia · 16-05-12 14:20:02

oh my god, housemates dream!

we dream of creating a fashion shoot that shows the beauty of a lady's fuzz. but it's only a pipedream at the moment. the question of hairiness is always a funny one. if i'm comfortable with it why aren't you, and if you are uncomfortable with it, why am i with you? there have been plenty of times when one of my gorgeous flatties has played a show (that's right, these ladies are daring to be on stage, playing instruments, and well- gasp!) only to have some idiot remark that they would be good looking if it wasn't for that underarm hair. when will these people realise that it's a great litmus test. if you can stand the taste of my pits, then well fellow you are the pits. and belong in one.

WLV612 · 16-05-12 15:08:11

artemesia wrote:

oh my god, housemates dream!
we dream of creating a fashion shoot that shows the beauty of a lady's fuzz. but it's only a pipedream at the moment. the question of hairiness is always a funny one. if i'm comfortable with it why aren't you, and if you are uncomfortable with it, why am i with you? there have been plenty of times when one of my gorgeous flatties has played a show (that's right, these ladies are daring to be on stage, playing instruments, and well- gasp!) only to have some idiot remark that they would be good looking if it wasn't for that underarm hair. when will these people realise that it's a great litmus test. if you can stand the taste of my pits, then well fellow you are the pits. and belong in one.

Tail end of this thread but I had to throw in on this comment. I've never understood a great deal about what does and does not constitute a "look" that every female (Or male for that matter....) should have to be considered acceptable to the rest of society. If women are criticized or categorized as somewhat less acceptable for, and I find it lunacy that this is even a topic for discussion, having arm pit hair then men catch it for having less hair on their heads. As if that's a fucking option, for Christ's sake! Yeah, if a gal feels pressured, bit of razor and you're done. A guy buys a wig and get's snickers and smirks. Can I change the color of my eyes? No.
I read a survey where well over 2/3's of the women polled would reject a man who was bald/balding. Not shaven headed though. WTF! I've been to parties where someone will say, "Don't say anything about her weight gain, she's self conscious about it." But it's open season on any guy with less hair. Standing at a party and chatting with a gal and someone yells, "Hey! Put on a hat! The glare off your head is blinding me!" Now a person who put's on excess weight did so by choice, in most cases and can fucking well lose it if they feel self conscious!
God damn that shit makes me mad! Ladies, if anyone tells you, or you catch wind of anyone trashing you because of your under arm hair, knee them square in the crotch. Twice. You're all gorgeous in my opinion.

(Factoid; There are women in my area who shave under their arms more often than they brush their teeth. Not an exaggeration.)

Last edited by WLV612 (16-05-12 17:22:03)

blissed · 16-05-12 19:52:20

What would England do without the daily mail.

Just that little bit better I think

http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/toys/dailymail/

.

Last edited by blissed (16-05-12 23:30:08)

HollyWood · 17-05-12 01:08:46

LOL Daily Mail is so trashy

viva · 17-05-12 01:10:27

Haha so true.

artemesia · 17-05-12 04:59:41

re cosmocking....

thanks reddit & cosmo for the ?awesome tip?

viva · 17-05-12 05:05:36

My boyfriend would be like, "when do I get to have that donut."

HollyWood · 17-05-12 07:24:01

hahahahaha

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