pick me up, artists

viva · 28-02-12 01:59:07

Okay, once upon a time I was at this party, talking to a friend, and a guy walks up to me that I recognize but can't quite place. He says, "Hey there."

I smile at him and say, "Hey, hi, I can't remember your name! I'm Viva."

He goes cold, looks me up and down. So deliberate. Then he turns to my friend and engages him in conversation. Nonplussed, I kind of stuck my hand into the space between their chests, and said, "Hi, I'm Viva."

He totally ignored me. I said it again, louder, more firmly - "HI. I'm Viva. What's your name?"

He looked at me - then again, up and down. He turned back to my friend. My friend glanced at me apologetically. I was being deliberately ignored. I didn't know what to do, but I felt that above all I must be acknowledged by this guy. I got in between them and grabbed his hand, and shook it, and I said, very clearly, "Hi. I'm Viva." I managed eye contact. I stood up straight. "Tell me your name."

At that point he relented, stopped being an asshole, and we laughed it off. But later I realized - I had been negged. And... even though I knew about this social technique - it worked. I wanted that boy's attention, and the more he ignored me, the more I needed him to pay attention to me.

What's negging?

Now we come to the purpose of this post. Negging is one of many techniques used by the "seduction community" - a group of men who have turned getting laid into a science - starting in the early '90s with NLP (neuro-linguistic programming) and "speed seduction" techniques, and developing into many different communities with different rules, point-collating systems, social techniques, etc - going so far as conventions, especially talented "seduction gurus" charging money to teach other men - "I was once a dateless loser like yourself" - seduction self-help books, and multiple forum communities where men exchange tips and tricks, bring back "field reports" of their encounters with women, and encourage each other to persevere in their quest to bang hot women by tricking them.

Back to negging - negging is the process of going up to a group of women, singling out the "hottest", least attainable one, and lowering her social value in front of the others. At the same time, you raise your own social value in the eyes of the others, because no one ever dares talk to a "hot girl" like that.

When safety back at your "lair" with your other hopeless loser friends, having come home from the clubs or wherever "hot girls" can be found, a successful field report might read like this:

"Went out to sarge that hot new restaurant tonight and immediately zeroed in on a set - 2xHB6, an HB5 and HB8. Targeting HB8 I started with focus on HB5 - built attraction with DHVs and chick cracks until she was eating out of my hand. #-closed on her. That made me AMOG so I was free to move on. Included 2xHB6 gradually but ignored HB8 until she asked me a question. I negged her - made it look like only an idiot would ask that question. Focused on her, for another neg - asked if her nails were real. She gave me a few shit-tests but her buying temperature was high so I went for a 70:30 push/pull with escalating kino and on my "bored looking around the room" IOD she caved and asked me if I wanted to get out of there. F-close at her place."

Crazy right? Anyway, if this is interesting to you - academically of course.. - I recommend reading a book called "The Game" by Neil Strauss. He talks about getting a big house in LA, filling it with losers and meeting movie stars and taking advantage of Hollywood club girls using these techniques. It's infuriating and disgusting, but interesting nonetheless.

I don't think there's much to debate about this - people using "techniques" to "get" the opposite sex is probably as old as sex itself, and fairly pathetic regardless of the gender of the person trying so hard. But this male pick-up artist community is really big and really creepy - and incidentally really funny. With all the boy's-club vocabulary ( a "lair"??) and fake-name identities, it's so much like a hilarious grownup's version of a no-girls-allowed tree-house club that I had to laugh in between my furious frothing at the mouth.

Are you guys laughing? Frothing? Both? Anyone have any experience with pick-up artistry?

blissed · 28-02-12 02:42:40

Nope, but whatever he was doing it didn't work did it So I reckon it's mostly fictional. Especially on a dedicated forum with screen names. I didn't really wanna follow the links so I didn't, but it all sounds prettty pathetic.

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viva · 28-02-12 03:04:15

It's completely not fictional, it totally happens in real life - just like women who read books about "nabbing your man for marriage" and "getting him and keeping him" certainly attempt to make these dreams a reality using "techniques". and yeah it's pretty pathetic but also quite interesting - to me at least.

viva · 28-02-12 03:05:15

And if by "he" you mean the guy at the party - well, picking me up wasn't his intention. But if he'd tried I probably would have slept with him. I have a track record of being attracted to guys who treat me poorly.

hyperballad · 28-02-12 06:13:38

This is 100% not fictional, there are entire blogs, communities and forums etc based on these techniques.

Tucker Max is legendary with this sort of thing. I find him simultaneously hilarious and absolutely revolting.

He not only landed a book deal through his stories of exploits, he also got a movie out of the way he 'plays' ladies. He has written tutorials about it.

HollyWood · 28-02-12 07:02:16

Out of control guys negging on women - I wander if this has been a technique that girls also use? I seem to distinctly remember telling my crush in highschool that he was a 'loser' in order to get him to like me - being a tad loser-ish myself. It worked for a make-out sesh behind the sports shed but he got over me pretty quick. The whole 'seduction community' thing is based on varied sex with different women (because these women will hopefully realise they've been had before too long even if it's not after the first sexual encounter with a member of the community) - So do you think this is something that has arisen from the growth of acceptable promiscuity and a move away from the insular couple? Or just a whole bunch of douche-bags looking for meat holes??

blissed · 28-02-12 13:00:48

How would anyone know this was all 100% real. Lots of people make lots of money from bullshit and write books full of it. Wether it's religious or homiopathic or chiropractic. (There's lots of money to be made from lightly tapping someones back and saying they're now realined with no scientific evidence at all and these scams go on for decades.)

Guys who are dumb enough to be into this like to brag, my hunch is most of it iisn't real and the part that is involves women who are amorous. Yet they're being disrespected for real, not as part of a session. Viva a part of my libido likes women who treat me badly or cruelly but in reality as part of a hot fantasy under my control. A part of my libdo likes to be cruel to someone else but that fantasy acted out is in reality under their control. That scenario like any play or movie ranges from playful to the routine use of the safeword for being scared and freakedout. That's my perspective. Sex is a humanity and an art form so lots of variety and if someone likes their fantasies to occupy a total reality and they are just risking themselves and not hurting someone else, it's up to them.

I think cynically tricking someone into having sex is fraud and rape.

.

Last edited by blissed (28-02-12 13:02:28)

domC · 28-02-12 13:54:20

My friends have a huge fascination with PUA and actively seek out the most ridiculous PUA manuals we can find. So far, this is an easy winner: http://www.textfiles.com/100/lay-girl.txt So yeah, I'm with you Viva, in that I definitely see the humour in it and find the language, the techniques, the avatars, the peacocking, the bravado, the bragging and the culture kind of hilarious. Also, that some of the great, "celebrity" PUAs are really open about being total nerds, because part of the bragging is about being able to say "I'm a total nerd who is not traditionally attractive, and yet I have women hanging off me!" That's not to say I'm not critical or uncomfortable with the community, but it's hard not to laugh at some of the stuff you read. Ridiculous lists of negs are another funny one to look up when you're whiling away long hours procrastinating.

There was also an American reality TV series from a few years ago called the Pick Up Artist. Two seasons where made, where a group of awkward, mostly nerdy guys are sent to meet Mystery (yes, sigh, that's the name he goes by and he's the guy who teaches Strauss in The Game), who trains them with the assistance of his wing-men, two well know PUAs, Matador and J-Dog (no... really). Mystery trains the men in his ways, helps them to develop avatars (the personas PUAs create to help them pick up), teaches them the basics of approaching sets (groups of people) and selecting targets, etc, etc. On the one hand, it makes for pretty hilarious trash TV and on the other, you leave some of the episodes feeling queasy.

It's not fictional, though. Blissed - how would we know it's real? I've met guys who admit to studying and practising it. I think that's what we mean by "real", that there are guys who will go out and employ these techniques in the first place. Furthermore, they seem to work based on evidence - just try searching on youtube for footage shot on phones of guys picking up complete strangers using the techniques. Some examples: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9tyt9TiPyY and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuMvjmxX … re=related - those clips aren't faked and they are also terrifying. Like Viva said, the PUA community has been active for a long time now and there are recognised techniques. More than that, some of the techniques are highly effective because they're just straightforward and obvious, but not necessarily ethical. For example: reading a woman's body language and picking up on cues from her (kino), checking for compliance from the woman (that's why PUAs will do "psychic" games like palm reading and stuff like that, because the women have to agree to participate and show a willingness and because the PUA then has to touch them), negging because it raises your social status and lowers hers, creating a sense of security and moving quickly so you don't end up in the "friend zone" and so the target doesn't have a chance to think, positioning yourself so that you don't pay too much attention to your target and show a level of disinterest, having a wing-man to support you where possible by isolating other members of the group and entertaining them, creating a false time constraint so you don't seem desperate and the girl misses you ("I can't talk for long, I'm on my way to meet my friends"), etc, etc. Nothing weird or esoteric there, no big secrets, it's just predatory and treats women like they're an item that a guy can tick off a list to later compare with his mates.

And bragging is part and parcel of the community, Blissed - in fact, it's the whole point. It's a game, it's not about building relationships, it's about picking up as many number 10s as you can. That's why there are so many youtube videos of PUAs that have timers on them to show how quickly they can break a set, isolate a target and get a kiss-close.

And HollyWood: I think negging is bog standard practice across the board, hey, regardless of gender. Some people do it unconsciously because they're uncomfortable and it works, because you're asserting your self worth by lowering someone else's. It's not a nice thing to do, even if it's subconscious and comes from deep anxiety and awkwardness, but it can be highly effective when it's used carefully. I think the trick with negging, in the sense that PUAs would use it, is that it has to be subtle and momentary. You'll never see PUAs suggest a neg like "Well you're just a bitch", but you will hear them say to a girl, "Wow, you two must be best friends, you're so alike!" Subtle, not brutal. But yeah, I think the types of guys who actively seek out and participate in the community are a certain minority and not a representation of any trend away from stable relationships. I definitely found it interesting watching the reality TV series because the guys they had selected all seemed to be more interested in just developing a relationship with a woman they liked and probably settling down, yet were being encouraged into these brief, shallow relationships that were based on being able to make out with a girl in a club, maybe take her home and then never see her again because you're in a different club now, working your charm on a different girl.

Last edited by domC (28-02-12 13:59:12)

blissed · 28-02-12 14:41:10

blissed wrote:

So I reckon it's mostly fictional.

I don't drink alcohol so my grip on the reality of the night before is pretty sober. I've been with guys who not only lie boast for themselves the day after the night before but lie boast for you too! My thought was no she didn't have her hands all over me. She had her hands all over the barman but she served me and we were talikng for a while. And it wasn't a wicked evening, it was OK and interesting, mainly because it was in Germany and though everyone was drunk through out the town there was no nastiness or violence at all, the pub closed at 1.30 am and we lost one of the guys and found him in a nearby brothel's bar so drunk he didn't know what he was doing Even without the Alcoholic distortion feild, imagination can stretch a little bit of reality a long way. The pick up videos are probly one success in 90 failures? just like most TV pranks takes are unusable. I'm not skeptical out of wishful thinking because I find it all distastefull. It's my hunch based on male behavour I've seen and the boasting that assumes most people who were there were drunk, that most of it is fictional, especially when posted on a forum where nobody was there. Like sometimes not even the person writing about it

I don't think the issue is casual sex verses long term relationships. A casual sexual encounter can be as delightful as any conversational encounter with someone you meet on a train and never see again. I think for most of these people if they have a long term relationship it's very likely they'll just carry their shittiness into the relationship and be posessive and abusive.

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Last edited by blissed (28-02-12 17:09:04)

Nowaysis · 28-02-12 17:18:04

I have nothing to add here other than that I find the whole thing absolutely revolting. I wish I could just laugh at it, but whenever these pick up "artists" are brought up in conversation, I just feel grossly misrepresented as a member of the male gender and want to run them all over with my self righteous steam roller of high horses.

domC · 28-02-12 22:55:35

Alcohol is an interesting factor. I forgot to mention "day game" is a really prized thing in the community - that is, being able to pick up women during the day, in non-club settings where alcohol is not a factor. Bookshops! Cafes! When they're out jogging! When they're doing the shopping! Particularly good if you can pick up a moving target. Essentially: it's not all about night clubs. Also, it's a game and it's competitive - of course the videos are going to be the best these guys can pull out and that they may have approached 10, 20, 30 women in a night before they managed to make out with one. Most PUA stuff I've read teaches men to accept rejection and to just. keep. going. Success isn't measured in your ability to make every woman pick up what you're putting down. Success is measured in how many women you can get all up. That suggests a level of tenacity. One of the most important skills I've seen that these guys learn is to be able to walk away as soon as you sense your target isn't responding and to be able to save face before it becomes a desperate "please make out with me!" As in: they will literally walk off, often without a word, and just try another group in a few minutes time. Anyway again, it's not esoteric, it's not gimmicky, they're not magic chick magnets - they're just dicks who work hard and build their confidence.

Nowaysis: I'm pretty sure no one here is going to imply that PUAs are indicative of men in general or that they are playing into an attitude that all men hold but are secretly concealing, so no need to feel misrepresented.

viva · 29-02-12 01:10:32

I'm really touched by the way Nowaysis and Blissed are reacting to this topic. I'm sorry if this is upsetting for you guys

In my mind, pick-up artistry is grotesque, but yeah, funny - just like women plotting how to get and keep men through marriage, and Cosmo magazine. And I'm not someone who thinks Cosmo magazine is the destroyer of womanhood - it's ridiculous, and potentially bad for young women, but I wouldn't censor that shit. Just make fun of it. Trying to control others to feel good about yourself is a bad way to live your life in my opinion, but when it comes to PUAS I reckon it's ultimately just like any of the other weird things we do to "get" sex partners - that is, reprehensible, repulsive, pathetic, and silly. But not evil - and I think conflating using these techniques with rape is absolutely insane.

It's just putting names to things people do naturally when they're posing and showing off for each other. The world of sexual social interaction is a very confused one, where power is being exchanged from hand to hand constantly. People just want to understand why and how not to be alone - they want rules to make them feel like that can have what they're looking for, 100%. I think they're stupid, obviously, but I understand. Those men think they want meaningless sex - they find out that's not what they want. Those women think they can trick a man into being their life partner - they find out they can't.

Life is full of little tragedies.

Where there is pathetic behaviour, I tend towards compassion before disdain. it's just the way I am. For these men it comes out in this ritualization of night club behaviour - which always was to get laid. Blissed reckoning that this PUA stuff is all fake doesn't make any sense to me - of course it's not fake. Does it work 100% of the time if you follow it to the letter? Absolutely not. Does it give you more apparent social confidence and therefore lead to women thinking you're more valuable than you once thought you were, if used right? Absolutely, yes.

What a guy looks like doesn't matter. If he touches me in the right way, takes his hands away in the right time, makes me chase a little, but not too much, makes me feel special, makes me feel like his time is valuable and short... if he makes me feel like we are both involved in a silly little game but at least *we're* aware of it unlike all the others... mostly if he feels like he can have me, and I'm in the process of looking for someone, he probably will succeed. If he makes me laugh, he'll probably succeed. If he spins me around or picks me up and makes me feel like I don't weigh anything, he's doing a good job flirting, and if he keeps doing it right, yeah - he'll pick me up. I'm not so specially easy, either.

So absolutely this is real. It's happening all the time. it's just some people give it funny names and gather together in lairs to compare their success rates like grownup nerds playing WOW except in real life with real XP.

viva · 29-02-12 01:21:59

Bwahaha Dom - I tried to find an especially amazing part of that text document to paste here but it was all too funny and I couldn't decide.

"...her clitoris - this is the mega power station of emotions..."

viva · 29-02-12 01:28:23

Nowaysis wrote:

I just feel grossly misrepresented as a member of the male gender and want to run them all over with my self righteous steam roller of high horses.

Wow I just have to point this out for being mad hilarious as well. Nice one man. hahahaha.

Nowaysis · 29-02-12 01:47:56

viva wrote:

I'm really touched by the way Nowaysis and Blissed are reacting to this topic. I'm sorry if this is upsetting for you guys

Not to worry, talking about it in an intelligent environment is far less upsetting than when my boss talks about it as if it's the cooled thing in the world, and thinks he's "reading" girls that come into the store. He may think it helps him get laid (or make sales for that matter). I think it makes him the most immature person in the store including our customers. And I sell video games for a living.

Of course, you're right, it's all stuff we do anyway, and being someone who adores rationality and systematicality(?), I definitely see where people are coming from wanting to make it all a bit more predictable. But much like artistic endeavours like music and films, when you can tell that it's scientifically crafted based on nothing more than a formula for what "works", all the magic goes out of it, and it just becomes manipulative.

Of course, that I've always felt more or less alienated by clubs and bars doesn't help my attitude towards all this. How am I supposed to get to know someone enough to get to the stage that we both want to have sex with each other, if I can hardly hear my own thoughts over the shittastic "music", let alone carry a conversation beyond mutual nodding?

I've read a few pages of The Game, and I'd probably like to read all of it some day out of morbid curiosity. I do agree that it is all rather laughable if you can look at it from some distance (I just wish I could laugh off the fact that the man who basically pays my bills believes in this stuff). And, I do also see the allure, particularly for people who aren't normally very good at the whole flirting game.

I dunno, maybe I'm just frustrated and need to get laid more...

viva wrote:

What a guy looks like doesn't matter. If he touches me in the right way, takes his hands away in the right time, makes me chase a little, but not too much, makes me feel special, makes me feel like his time is valuable and short... if he makes me feel like we are both involved in a silly little game but at least *we're* aware of it unlike all the others... mostly if he feels like he can have me, and I'm in the process of looking for someone, he probably will succeed. If he makes me laugh, he'll probably succeed. If he spins me around or picks me up and makes me feel like I don't weigh anything, he's doing a good job flirting, and if he keeps doing it right, yeah - he'll pick me up. I'm not so specially easy, either.

That's quite the list of factors that need to come together for it all to work out. No wonder people want cheat sheets for flirting.

Actually, thinking about it after having spent the evening playing a game called Catherine where the protagonist must play his cards right to finally end up with whichever woman he prefers of the two competing over him, it all sounds a little too familiar. I've played a number of video games the last couple of years where the relationships between your own main character and the supporting cast is a major feature (most notably the Mass Effect and Dragon Age games). There's tonnes of conversations and if you pick the right lines at certain key moments, your character can develop a relationship and have sex with certain characters. Sometimes I can't help but wonder if these games are seriously damaging me (and others), encouraging me to believe that real relationships can be controlled just as easily, as long as you pick the right conversation options. And if you fail, you can just reload a previous save and try again.

viva wrote:

Nowaysis wrote:
I just feel grossly misrepresented as a member of the male gender and want to run them all over with my self righteous steam roller of high horses.
Wow I just have to point this out for being mad hilarious as well. Nice one man. hahahaha.

Thanks, I do aim to please, on occasion.

domC wrote:

Nowaysis: I'm pretty sure no one here is going to imply that PUAs are indicative of men in general or that they are playing into an attitude that all men hold but are secretly concealing, so no need to feel misrepresented.

I would never think that either. After all, this is where brains come to get aroused.

Last edited by Nowaysis (29-02-12 01:56:12)

Nowaysis · 29-02-12 01:52:59

Wow, can you tell I'm just rambling? Pardon my incoherence and all-over- the-placedness...

HollyWood · 29-02-12 02:13:58

domC wrote:

the guys they had selected all seemed to be more interested in just developing a relationship with a woman they liked and probably settling down, yet were being encouraged into these brief, shallow relationships that were based on being able to make out with a girl in a club, maybe take her home and then never see her again because you're in a different club now, working your charm on a different girl.

I think this is the saddest part. Encouraging men into this macho non-emotive state based on unrealistic interpretations of male and female sexuality.

Viva - cosmo taught me how to give amazing head (thank you cosmo) - so PLEASE don't censor that shit - also PLENTY of wanking to the 'sealed section' in teen days. Where is the male equivalent mag teaching men to give amazing head? (mainstream porn clearly doesn't cut it - what about a publication?)

blissed · 29-02-12 02:36:24

Viva 'Ive never said it's all fake

blissed wrote:

I reckon it's mostly fictional..

My hunch is the accounts of successes are mostly fictional boasting and exaggeration.

People don't have to find the same things funny and The whole scene you've described to me holds no charm or humour, it's just sad.

Lying to get sex is fraud and so rape or sexual assault and as far as I know, where practical, is criminally prosecutable in Sweden.

.

aven frey · 29-02-12 02:55:13

so for me the most disturbing thing about all this is that it really seems to wallow in rigid and old fashioned gender binaries. I can't help but feel a rage against a community that insists on congratulating itself on outsmarting my sacred fucking hole, or something. So patronising, so sexist, so so boring.

Maybe these silly nitwits pick up because some chicks actually want to have casual sex. I have met that mehow dick many times in various forms (brunette, blond, beret, cons), he is usually just annoying and it's only because his fakery is so obvious and his witless conversation so laboured (oh and for me personally his inability to respect physical boundaries, don't touch me if I don't know you, farrk. Unless though you're a gentle hippy who's smiles light up the cosmos).

So many ladies like personable dudes with nice cosmos smiles who are straight up and these kinda guys I'm sure would have more and better sex, but I guess conquering is better for the ego, or something, whatever, meh.

viva · 29-02-12 03:11:04

I have no problem with you not finding this funny - as you say everyone's idea of humor is different. It's a dark humor for sure that I find here. I think it's sad too, in the way that all misguided attempts to fix our lives without fixing ourselves are sad.

However, if lying to get sex were the same thing as rape, an overwhelming amount of casual sex would be considered rape. I might say that I love Elvis when really, I've never even spent time alone listening to his music. I might say I'm looking for a relationship, when I'm really not. I might say I love you when, I don't. I might say I really like your tie, when really, I actually hate ties. I might even sleep with someone to make someone else jealous, I might say I've got a good job when I don't, I might say I don't have kids when I do, I might say that I climbed Everest when I only went to base camp, or that I write novels for a living when really, in 5th grade I had a poem published and that's all.

The lies are endless and it's part of being imperfect and wanting people to like us. When does this cross the line into maliciousness? And even when it does - like when I lie and say I love you - is it fair to violent rape survivors to compare their situation to a girl who was factually misinformed?

Maybe we need more words. Certainly consent is based on a number of factors, and many of them are intellectual - we weigh what we know and make a decision, and if what we know is a lie, we may feel taken advantage of. That's bad, it's a horrible feeling - but it is part of taking responsibility for having sex with someone you're not 100% sure of... assuming you haven't been deliberately misled and manipulated by a sociopath over a long period of time. Or that the lie wasn't about a fatal STI.

I'm reminded of an article. I read recently in which an Israeli women claimed she'd been raped because the man she had sex with seemed to be Jewish, but later she found out he was Palestinian - a Muslim. He was convicted of the rape and I had a froth because I find this behaviour abhorrent on the part of the woman. He was wrong. Then she was MORE wrong.

I believe his conviction sets an extremely dangerous precedent for what we're talking about - rape by deception. Of course, this is also an example of Israeli courts prejudice, and so perhaps not applicable to this discussion. A whole different kind of unacceptable precedent.

viva · 29-02-12 03:18:59

bobby wrote:

Maybe these silly nitwits pick up because some chicks actually want to have casual sex.

Also because some chicks want to be taken. Some chicks want to be conquered - actually, I would say that many do. It's a function of confusing our real-life insecurities with the power dynamics which sexually secure people employ in safe ways in bed.

Never underestimate the prevalence of, nor the power of insecurity. Everyone looking to get laid in that "hollywood night club" is insecure. They are like desperation playgrounds.

Last edited by viva (29-02-12 03:19:32)

HollyWood · 29-02-12 04:32:22

bobby wrote:

So many ladies like personable dudes with nice cosmos smiles who are straight up and these kinda guys I'm sure would have more and better sex, but I guess conquering is better for the ego, or something, whatever, meh.

the nice cosmos smile and witty conversation - my underwear are already around my ankles! some douche who reckons he's got better things to do can go fuck the sacred hole of a blow-up doll! He's also probably never made a woman cum.

blissed · 29-02-12 13:32:19

Viva there are obvious distinctions between your examples of lies.

Saying you like someones tie at a job interview when you don't won't get you fired if you later admit you hate it. but saying you've had a book published when you have'nt is fraudulent and if you said that to get a job and they later found you to be lying you'd be fired. Under certain circumstances lying about your qualifications to obtain money under false pretences is a criminal offence. If this is considered such an important principle when money is involved then why not when physical contact and intimate personal boundaries are involved. Lying about having a book published means pretending to be an author who has, so that your book is searchable on someones phone. Doing that to get money is a criminal offence and I class it as date rape when sex is involved. Obviously a prosecutor would try and decide wether the case is credible but at the moment it seems date rape has a bit of a dodgy basis in law and I tend to prefer the Swedish laws. Nowaysis I wonder if you know wether those laws are effective in practice.

There are women and men who wanna have sex just like there are women and men who want to buy phones or houses or insurance policies, but people have legal rights, it isn't buyer beware and it shouldn't be buying from a private individual either. I see no difference between those principles of fraud and fraudulent sexual assault and rape. I think the problem is fraudulent rape is so socially acceptable it's even represented in TV beer ads as a joke. Anyway a prosecutor is more qualified than me to determine how prosecutable an individual case is but I think the basic principle of recognising the place of fraud under law in rape and sexual assault is sound.

.

Last edited by blissed (29-02-12 13:42:17)

Nowaysis · 29-02-12 14:28:32

I'm no expert on legislation surrounding these things, but I highly doubt you could get charged with rape for telling a fib to get someone to sleep with you. From what I can tell from news reporting, it's all about consent. Can it be assumed that the accused should have understood that the victim did not want to have sex?*

That said, rape trials still seem to attract some rather dirty lawyering. It is still far to common to hear about defence attorneys asking irrelevant questions like how the victim was dressed, or insinuating that she (it's always a she) has a history of promiscuous behaviour.

But like I say, I'm not expert. I could imagine that if the scale of the lies is large enough, say you lure someone into bed by promises of a job offer or something to that effect, you'd be inviting charges of sexual abuse, which is the "milder" version.

I really shouldn't say too much though. This is a veritable mine field of volatile opinions, and I don't want to come off as some authority on Swedish law and put my foot in my mouth.

*Of course, if the accused has told a lie, and had reason to believe the victim would not have gone to bed with them if he had told the truth, it gets fairly grey.

Last edited by Nowaysis (29-02-12 14:29:05)

blissed · 29-02-12 14:44:07

Nowaysis wrote:

I highly doubt you could get charged with rape for telling a fib to get someone to sleep with you.

The word fib by definition is lying about liking a tie not fraud. Thanks though. In Blissedland the grey areas that exist in many rape accusations are dealt with 1st by a proecutors assessment.

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#1 28-02-12 01:59:07

pick me up, artists

#2 28-02-12 02:42:40

Re: pick me up, artists

#3 28-02-12 03:04:15

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#4 28-02-12 03:05:15

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#5 28-02-12 06:13:38

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#6 28-02-12 07:02:16

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#7 28-02-12 13:00:48

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#8 28-02-12 13:54:20

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#9 28-02-12 14:41:10

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#10 28-02-12 17:18:04

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#11 28-02-12 22:55:35

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#12 29-02-12 01:10:32

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#13 29-02-12 01:21:59

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#14 29-02-12 01:28:23

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#15 29-02-12 01:47:56

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#16 29-02-12 01:52:59

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#17 29-02-12 02:13:58

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#18 29-02-12 02:36:24

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#19 29-02-12 02:55:13

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#20 29-02-12 03:11:04

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#21 29-02-12 03:18:59

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#22 29-02-12 04:32:22

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#23 29-02-12 13:32:19

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#24 29-02-12 14:28:32

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#25 29-02-12 14:44:07

Re: pick me up, artists

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