Twilight

blissed · 26-11-11 20:47:13

I've only seen exerts of Twilight on youtube but they tend to bear out what Laci says about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl … gpHK5orJQ#!

These ideas and fantasies are libidic, but I think sexual assault and abuse should be explored in the clear consentual fantasy of BDSM not presented as a role model for reality while labelling the consentual BDSM as disgusting. That's not even logical let alone being professionally cowardly (on behalf of the makers) morally repugnant and irresponsible.

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viva · 28-11-11 00:22:16

All I could think about while watching this chick is, "how the hell did you make it past page 3?"

I tried, honest I did. It's pure rubbish.

blissed · 28-11-11 00:27:34

Laci is a sex educator so she wanted to understand it fully as a phenomina before commenting on it. But I agree, can't say I'd enjoy reading up to page 37 let alone plodding through it all out of a sense of duty

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blissed · 07-12-11 23:40:21

Laci's 2nd video is actually a better one for me to share. I didn't know Meyers was Mormon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl … wlcNgEuPkc

I thougt Twilight was a soft BDSM novel. Mormonism and many other societies take those BDSM sexual feelings and incorperate them right into reality. Where as BDSM in secular society seperates those feelings from reality and places them into temperary fantasy. Once the fantasy session is over. people of whatever sex or gender are equal and carry equal respect as people. Seeking to make sexual notions compulsary outside of sex I suppose is a fare definition of sexism.

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Last edited by blissed (07-12-11 23:45:27)

Nowaysis · 08-12-11 00:22:00

I want to Bash Twilight too!

I once started reading the first book, and stopped after about ten lines. That's how bad it was. Of course, I was over at a friend's house and had better things to do than read books I knew beforehand wouldn't appeal to me, but still, it was pretty horrendous, speaking strictly about literary quality

All the same, what Laci says in the video makes sense based on what little I've heard about the books and seen of the films. They're ultra conservative as far as gender roles go, and I gather there's a big sense in them of "oh, it's so noble to suffer for your love, even if it's caused by the object of said love it self", something that seems to appeal to teenagers a lot (and to my own esteemed adult self in weaker moments, but it still has to be dressed up in decent writing to be palatable).

And, of course, everyone likes feeling protected and cared for, as long as it doesn't get overbearing and obsessive, which is what I assume is what Meyer was going for with Edward's attitude towards Bella.

But I shouldn't say too much. As I said, I have only read a tiny bit of the first book, and seen like half a film.

Last edited by Nowaysis (12-12-11 22:22:20)

emily_c · 12-12-11 13:21:28

i'm going to be a big-fat-pain in the butt here and disagree a bit - i worked in a bookstore, and looked after the kids, teen, classics and my own little pet project of asian literature sections. this was quite a few years ago now. i worked there when the first twilight novel came out - long, LONG before it was a phenomenon. in the interest of remaining up to date on current novels, i read it (it's what i did for a large cross-section of the books - i find teen novels intellectually fascinating). i was hooked by the trashy imagery, the blatant playing off the idea of 'all of us are unique misunderstood flowers, and a person who is SPECIAL will come for us', and just had something - intangible that when i read, i thought 'damn, this is going to get popular. really, really popular.'

my colleagues made fun of me relentlessly for my love of them. i don't think i love them ironically - there's a part of me that genuinely likes the books. they are very cleverly constructed to appeal to people on some level - why else would they sell so well? it is about longing, and lust, and that intensity of feelings when you are a teenager, and feeling desired and beautiful, even when you are average, and the plot itself is simple but effective.

needless to say, when the books became insanely popular, i became very smug for predicting it. the final book in the series was, however, a complete mess. she'd gotten enough weight as a writer to not allow decent editing, and it's pretty much a sack of shit that makes little/no sense. it's a shame, because the first three were really well constructed, mindless pap, and i'm not ashamed to admit my love of them. i spend my life surrounded by books of all sorts of quality, and the trash has a big place in my heart too. as Gunter Grass does say in 'The Tin Drum' - 'Even bad books are books, and therefore sacred.'

blissed · 12-12-11 13:47:04

Are they sacred in a an ipad Actually what your saying about twilight I've said to people about the rap and hiphop I like. It has lots of things I don't like about it like some of the moron social attitudes but the musicality, some of the emotional lyrcism and procusiveness of the voices against the other sounds are really cool.

Perhaps someone can take the things you like about Twilight and make a really good novel from them minus the subliminal mormon messages.

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Last edited by blissed (12-12-11 15:24:52)

emily_c · 18-12-11 04:45:08

I find the Mormon themes fascinating. but then again, I'm happy to celebrate trash in literature as much as beauty. book slut.

WLV612 · 18-12-11 16:23:02

emily_c wrote:

"......... as Gunter Grass does say in 'The Tin Drum' - 'Even bad books are books, and therefore sacred.'

I know absolutely squat about this topic. Zero, zip, zilch. But anyone who quotes Grass and this particular quote, will get my attention. I will add this quote on bad books by Auden:
“Attacking bad books is not only a waste of time but also bad for the character. If I find a book really bad, the only interest I can derive from writing about it has to come from myself, from such display of intelligence, wit and malice as I can contrive. One cannot review a bad book without showing off.”

E.A. Poe sums it all with his,

"I put up with nothing I can put down." (On bad books)

viva · 19-12-11 00:32:48

WLV612 wrote:

"I put up with nothing I can put down." (On bad books)

/major swoon.

domC · 19-12-11 00:39:03

Aw, c'mon Emily, dissing bad books as a pastime is kind of what we do best. Mark Twain said, "I haven't any right to criticise books, and I don't do it except when I hate them," but then followed that up with "I often want to criticise Jane Austen, but her books madden me so that I can't conceal my frenzy from the reader; and therefore I have to stop every time I begin. Everytime I read 'Pride and Prejudice' I want to dig her up and beat her over the skull with her own shin-bone."

There we go: Twilight thread is neutralised, because we've brought Grass, Auden, Poe and now Twain sledging Austen (I hate Austen, too), into the conversation. WLV612 - I agree with Auden and I love that quote, there's nothing quite so great as reading authors sledging each others' work with total wit and malice. Shitty literature inspires so many snarky pastiches (or pistaches, a la Faulkes), it's why there are literary hoaxes along the lines of Ern Malley and vitriolic critical pieces in literary magazines often written by literary heavyweights. Sometimes that hatred of shitty or perceived shitty writing is powerful and meaningful in and of itself, when it challenges popular opinion (Achebe's vicious essay on Conrad's Heart of Darkness, for example).

Which is a roundabout way of saying, ain't nothing wrong with dumping on writing you don't like, because you're contributing to an ongoing discussion. I think Twilight has a place as a cultural artefact that's worthy of discussion and close reading. With that said, I have absolutely no interest in actually reading it or discussing it.

blissed · 19-12-11 01:20:02

Worst books of all time poll chart http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/2.Th … f_All_Time

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viva · 19-12-11 02:00:36

How the HELL did Animal Farm make it one "the worst books of all time" list. That's just stupid. Farenheight 451? The Giver? Hi. Also Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth?

This reads less like a "worst books" list and more like a "books that were boring for my peanut brain, someone told me to read this in school and I am too cool for that, written about shopping, or represent politicians I don't like" list.

Books are sacred, but nothing is too sacred to be criticized - in fact, I would argue that the more valuable the concept, the more the need for critical regard. It's a form of respect. And by winnowing out the crap, we are able to provide excellent recommendations to people who want to read, but don't, or who read slowly and cannot just imbibe and digest everything consisting of pages between two covers like us rabid book-junkies can (and do).

I think also there's an important distinction to be made between "trashy novels" and "books that are trash" - like the difference between yummy junk food and school lunches that are mostly made of eyes and bones and cardboard.

Also I truly believe there are books whose quality is a matter of taste, and then there is writing that is just... bad. really. bad. Twilight is a bit apart, though its popularity encourages adult readers to examine it closely, because as a YA novel it will naturally employ different methods of using English to communicate stories. No one's going to sit around and say the Babysitter's Club, Goosebumps, and the Thoroughbred Series are examples of masterful wordplay, but they are a wonderful way to get kids reading.

There are of course those amazing books that span the spectrum - The Giver is one example, I would argue that Harry Potter is another - and we appreciate those, but not to the detriment of trashy YA fiction. We can't forget the preteens - not everyone wants elegant structure and mind-quaking ideas with their fiction.

emily_c · 19-12-11 02:34:39

i relish insulting bad books - i just think the reasons that people are saying the Twilight books are bad are often not overly valid, in the context of why it was written, and how it is read. i mean, it's not read in the same way Austin is, with that consideration of it being 'literary.' i don't think many people read Twilight with the pretension of it being some sort of hallowed text - they read it because the narrative is easy, and fast, and there are some really solid emotional qualities that resonate. i'm all for people loving, or hating it - and discussing why they love or hate it, as long as it's a considered response.

and Viva- YES. teen novels are genre. they are a very specific genre that utilise very specific techniques. sometimes, you get remarkable books out of this - (my area of main interest/obsession is teen novels with female same sex relationships...seriously, i have around 70 of the fuckers) - things like Mosh Pit, Girl Walking Backwards, Gravel Queen, Nick and Nora's Infinite Playlist (which was also a half decent teen movie) - and they way Twilight uses the genre is both creative and skilled. Meyer was also highly involved with the fan community before it hit a critical mass (ahem, i am sort of ashamed how much i know about this. i am going to keep with the argument of 'I WORKED IN A BOOKSTORE!') which added to the feeling of community around the books. personally, i find the genre fascinating, and i love seeing when books use it very very well. (also - the babysitter's club. Fuck. Yes.)

there is a lot to criticise - that i will not deny. cardboard characters, predictable plots, ineffectual female characters, really blatant gender roll enforcement - personally i don't have issues with bella getting a few consensual bruises after the first time they fucked, because well, even in vanilla sex, bruises happen, and there's no overt mentions of a D/s relationship - though, while Edward is hugely powerful and Bella is weak, it could be argued that there is a clear D/s dynamic - and the books are really positive about fucking, as long as You Are Married, which is, yeah, a bit fucked up.

the Most interesting, and most obviously Mormon thing about the books is the really heavy themes of family, and the importance of family life, clan life. you see it again and again - Bella being fractured by her parent's divorce - the importance of the family/clan of the wolf tribe - the Cullen's constant references to family - the role of the child is far less important than the role of the family, of community -- all ULTRA Mormon things.

i really like pulling apart and ripping into literature, my lovely Dom, as you well know - but i will remain defensive of Twilight, even with the hideous, ugly scar that is Breaking Dawn.

oh god i like discussing Twilight.

WLV612 · 19-12-11 17:01:22

domC wrote:

Aw, c'mon Emily, dissing bad books as a pastime is kind of what we do best. Mark Twain said, "I haven't any right to criticise books, and I don't do it except when I hate them," but then followed that up with "I often want to criticise Jane Austen, but her books madden me so that I can't conceal my frenzy from the reader; and therefore I have to stop every time I begin. Everytime I read 'Pride and Prejudice' I want to dig her up and beat her over the skull with her own shin-bone."
There we go: Twilight thread is neutralised, because we've brought Grass, Auden, Poe and now Twain sledging Austen (I hate Austen, too), into the conversation. WLV612 - I agree with Auden and I love that quote, there's nothing quite so great as reading authors sledging each others' work with total wit and malice. Shitty literature inspires so many snarky pastiches (or pistaches, a la Faulkes), it's why there are literary hoaxes along the lines of Ern Malley and vitriolic critical pieces in literary magazines often written by literary heavyweights. Sometimes that hatred of shitty or perceived shitty writing is powerful and meaningful in and of itself, when it challenges popular opinion (Achebe's vicious essay on Conrad's Heart of Darkness, for example).
Which is a roundabout way of saying, ain't nothing wrong with dumping on writing you don't like, because you're contributing to an ongoing discussion. I think Twilight has a place as a cultural artefact that's worthy of discussion and close reading. With that said, I have absolutely no interest in actually reading it or discussing it.

Nor do I. Having thrown Auden (Favorite line, "....and torture's horse scratches it's innocent behind on a tree." That's great, isn't it?) into the fray along with Poe, I shall now deftly proceed to shoot myself in the foot by professing my love for all things Austen. There's a first edition, Sense and Sensibility on the market I'm considering buying, $36,000.00. I hope they'll take monthly payments. Small monthly payments.
In my defense, I'll try to offset the damage by stating my fourth favorite novel in the world is, Life on the Mississippi. I'll also mention there are no Harry Potter novels on my list.
..........I'd rather eat poo than read one.
Having written all the above, I'll apologize for posting on a thread, the subject of which I have no knowledge about, whatsoever.
I just enjoy spirited and enlightened exchange. Again, a big plus for IFM.

Last edited by WLV612 (19-12-11 17:02:51)

blissed · 19-12-11 19:02:33

Oh HP 1 and 2 are the only books I've chosen to read to the end Loved the 1st one.

Is pride and prejudice and zombies a good book?

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WLV612 · 19-12-11 19:29:14

blissed wrote:

Is pride and prejudice and zombies a good book?
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It's killer.

viva · 20-12-11 00:52:47

Hahaha I hate Austen and I love Harry Potter. To each their own hey?

emily_c · 20-12-11 06:20:25

yup. i loathe Austen, and love Harry Potter. no shame.

WLV612 · 20-12-11 18:46:00

emily_c wrote:

yup. i loathe Austen, and love Harry Potter. no shame.

For the record, I have nothing against Harry Potter, film, novel or any other form. Just a well known popular work of fiction. Can't afford to offend any magical kid.

There's a line for something I saw on TV and I'm not sure how it was exactly phrased but it was in the context of a lover of fine art who also had a collection of adult material.

"The enjoyment of one does not preclude the enjoyment of the other."
I thought that was a good thought.
I may read the Bible and glean as much from it as I might from reading the Quotations of Chairman Mao Tes-Tung or vise versa. Reading one does not preclude the reading of the other. And the contents of one need not be in opposition to the contents of the other nor would their respective influence on my life or way of thinking.
I need to let this topic resume it's course. Sorry.

blissed · 20-12-11 19:01:58

I think Pride and prejudice and zombies was written by someone who thought P & P was lacking and needed the zombies. It's a kind of test of a bad novel. If a book is really bad, re-writing with zombies will work.

You could re-write the bible with aliens and a master planet called Kolob but I think that's been done already

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Last edited by blissed (20-12-11 19:02:56)

WLV612 · 20-12-11 21:23:25

I'm not a big fan of the, "Metro-Zombies" who have gained popularity in the past 10 years or so.
Call me a Zombie purist or Zombie snob but today's new crop of Zombies just seem to be all show and little substance.
The Zombie in the Bob Hope classic film, "Ghost Breakers" is how a Zombie should look and how they should conduct themselves.
There needs to be boundaries. It's gotten to the point where I can't distinguish a Zombie from a politician.
When I lived in southern Louisiana, zombies and voodoo were not taken lightly. Not a joke to the Cajun people. One visit to Metairie Cemetery on a foggy night will let a person know there's not a lot to joke about.

#1 26-11-11 20:47:13

Twilight

#2 28-11-11 00:22:16

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