the whys of slut walks

viva · 22-09-11 01:58:28

I don't know if this will be particularly enlightening to anyone, but it sure was to me and so I'd like to open the discussion. Recently, I participated in a slut walk here in Melbourne. It was definitely fun to run around with my seethru top on and hoist signs and chant with my girlfriends (and Richard) but press afterwards was typically malicious, Herald Sun ignorance - a proper fist full of slut shaming - and I felt it, I felt ashamed and I felt confused about the point of it, of any of it.

Today I read a story that reminded me of the experience and sort of helped me work out the whys of and importance of slut walk. Even though intellectually I know that it's about women behaving how they like, dressing how they like, without deserving molestation ... god it seems so painfully obvious... the point wasn't driven home for me until I read this. Yeah.

blissed · 22-09-11 02:42:21

The social construct that says if you express your sexuality, the penalty for not correcting to modesty is to lose your right to choice and consent is absolutely appalling.

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aven frey · 22-09-11 03:56:39

Yeah I love this piece. The comments are amazing also. I had something similar happen to me, it's so fucked up and sometimes the only way I can manage to deal with the intense waves of anger I get when I think about it is to imagine that I took my stupid looking stiletto off and smashed him the face, over and over and over. I didn't though, I cried in his face and he laughed in mine. I wish I'd had the courage to press charges but the prevailing attitude is still this
http://hausofkelsie.tumblr.com/post/101 … /ummmm-yes
(note the 'do you really want to ruin his life' that one is my favourite.)
and with something like 1 in 10 reported sexual assaults actually resulting in a guilty verdict I reckon if I'd taken it further I'd be wanting to smash a whole bunch of other people in the face as well.

blissed · 22-09-11 12:13:24

Bobby that link is brilliiant! http://hausofkelsie.tumblr.com/post/101 … /ummmm-yes I've been using the seductively displayed goods shoplifting analogy for ages but thats much better, thanks.

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Last edited by blissed (22-09-11 12:16:17)

jane_e · 22-09-11 13:33:38

"word"

Bobby, that was awesome.

I wish I could remember more exactly my original reaction to this list of Sexual Assault Prevention Tips Guaranteed to Work!. Regardless, before reading it I never even thought about the attitudes and ideas I was internalizing about sexual assault every time I read a typical "how not to get yourself raped" pamphlet. You just...you just, I don't know. The blaming of victims is so pervasive that until articles like these come along it can, in many everyday sort of situations, be hard to even see it. It's scary stuff and hopefully big events like Slut Walks help to restore some semblance of balance back into the world.

moldenke · 22-09-11 22:28:29

Hooray! I'm really glad that you brought this up, because I recently heard about one of these slut walks in the place where I used to live and have wanted to talk about it since then, but didn't have the outlet!

First of all, I immediately wanted to share that link comparing the reporting of rape to the reporting of a mugging, because it was great, but then in the second post...Bobby beat me to it.

But I also wanted to kind of talk about my initial reaction to it. When I first heard about it, I was like, "What the fuck?" but it actually got me to start thinking about rape awareness events. I had never really understood them. I mean, yes: rape is awful. It ain't cool. And as much as I like inappropriate, offensive jokes, I don't even find those same types of joke funny when they're about rape (and that's saying something!).

I had never understood those events, though, because I never understood what they did against rape. I mean, the people who participate them are obviously against rape, but what could a big event do to change people's mind? What would an event like that do when a rape was about to occur?

I'm not sure exactly what changed my mind about that, but the more I thought about it, the more I started to think about how important those kinds of events are--and especially for guys to participate in them, but I'll get to that part later.

I always read about how women need to protect themselves and avoid walking alone at night, etc., etc., but that's bullshit. I'm very proud of my fearlessness and my willingness to go pretty much anywhere, anytime, confident that I can deal with what will happen, and it's total bullshit that everyone can't feel that way.

That's kind of beside my point, but the main thing I realized was that those kinds of events gather more and more people to show just how many people are intolerant of rape. The more people who participate in those kinds of things, the more likely it is that someone who would potentially rape someone would instead decide against it. That person might have a friend who had participated in one of those events and realize that committing the rape would lose that friend's respect.

Which brings me to why I think it's important for guys to participate in these kinds of events: it seems like it would do more to establish rape as a violation of the code of "bros," if you know what I mean (and I know I'm being really inarticulate right now). If someone's "bro" had been in one of these rallies against rape, that might suggest to the potential criminal that "If I rape someone, my 'bro' is going to think I'm a total asshole." And maybe that could be important.

Maybe not--maybe the type of people who could do something that horrible are not the type of people who care about others' respect--but it seems like these kinds of things help. If they prevent even one rape, I think they're worth it.

aven frey · 23-09-11 02:03:32

And it needs to become completely unacceptable to suggest that you shouldn't press charges against someone who has assulted you because it will ruin that persons life. People who would never dream of ever hurting someone else often don't think twice about the insipid ways in which they perpetuate victim blaming and the broader social harm that such attitudes cause
Jane I love that, a friend sent me something similar when I was getting all upset about the way the media was treating a woman who had involved some football players in a rape allegation after said football players had won the grandfinal (very big deal in Australia). It was written by a male friend of his and it made me realise that the general underlying trope in those how to not get raped, that a man is unable to control his urges so women have to take steps to do so for him is so offensive to men.

viva · 23-09-11 02:06:58

Actually I am really afraid of the women who make false rape charges. That is terrifying to me on so many levels. How quick they are to point to those women and say, SEE, this is the problem, women cry wolf, women will always cry wolf, and so women can never be fully trusted... women have this power, to cry rape and ruin lives, watch out for women... I can actually barely talk about this without going hulk.

aven frey · 23-09-11 03:39:29

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2783280.html

'The myth of the lying woman is the most powerful myth in the tradition of rape law.'

'The truth is that all crimes have false reporting rates and sexual assault is no different. Somewhere between 2 to 3 per cent of sexual assault accusations turn out to be malicious and false, which is about the same rate as other serious crimes.'

I heart Leslie Cannold, she's so way cool.

blissed · 23-09-11 23:09:34

Obviously Police have to treat it as an accusation and assume the accused is innocent until proven guilty. I think if most police stations from the front desk to the corridors and interview rooms everything is routinely videoed in high def with sound that makes the task of trying easier. Try pretending to laugh or cry, strong emotions are very hard to fake and wether your under pressure or in the sympathetic decor of a rape crisis interview room those strong emotions will come out at some point. Sympathy brings a voluntary outpouring of emotion so a sympathetic approach to the accuser gets the best results too.

If while boating at sea your best friend fell overboard and drowned. You'd be distressed. If the first person you told about the incident was a duty officer at a police station on video in the soft interview room. Simply asking about your friendship would bring tears, a murderer who'd pushed someone into the sea would have a different set of raw emotional responses.

If you tell someone else you've been raped first and then are persuaded to go to the police the raw emotion is evened out as your mind is starting to adapt to the trauma and distress is turning to anger and a little more composure. So on the front of the police station have a poster ." Been raped or assaulted? come in and let our Debby be the 1st to know, in the professional care of our comfortable incident suite. " Perhaps have a TV campaign "Let Debby be the 1st to know" Then you only need one poster for the whole country wether the duty officer is called Debby or not and you could focus group test the name that works the best. In fact Debby would be effective at tackling domestic violence, people at risk of dis"honour" killings and the judgement of the stations designated Debby could if need be enable those people to hide into protective custardy. Debby is definitely going in as a suggestion in the feedback section of my local police website.

If police stations are sympathetic to rape accusers and you know you can go there as easily as using a hospital to have a baby, knowing you'll get the same professional level of care, then that crucial '1st person you tell about the rape' experience isn't wasted because it's raw natural emotional sincerity is evidence, and if your rapist is known to you or is your partner, sometimes your only evidence.

"Go to the police" or "Let Debby be the 1st to know" I know which phrase is the most inviting. Does it sound like a good idea to anyome else?

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carstuff1000 · 24-09-11 06:37:01

The "LAW IS AN ASS" as they say in the UK.

domC · 25-09-11 01:46:46

In a previous life, I was in the federal police's typing pool, transcribing records of interviews. We were chronically understaffed, largely due to the security clearances needed to have access to the bulk of the material we handled, so it meant that our tiny team had to deal with every single thing that came in. The gross majority of what I typed were sexual assault cases and I have literally listened to hundreds of women recount, in graphic detail, how they were raped - often just hours after the event, immediately after going through the sterile process of a forensic examination. So yeah, Blissed, I can say for certain that I almost never heard something that I felt was insincere and I've had the horrific task of sitting through people breaking down and hearing highly trained police officers (officers who do nothing but handle child and adult sexual assault - and fuck they are incredible people and I have nothing but respect for them) trying to comfort victims while still needing to go through the rigmarole of collecting evidence. I wish more women knew that while the process of reporting rape is daunting, you receive so much support - much, much more than if you choose to recover alone.

As far as Slut Walk goes, I have mixed emotions. At first, I was all for it - down with victim shaming and hooray for women getting fucking angry. When I thought about it a little more, though, I realised there were a few things I was uneasy about. I don't want to reclaim the word slut - why would I when it's been used to degrade and shame women? It's a personal thing for me - my housemate is someone would probably gladly call herself a slut (so long as she is giving herself that title and not someone else), in the same way that she would call herself a whore rather than a sex worker (sex worker was always my preference). I respect women who want to call themselves sluts, but I would never call myself a slut or feel comfortable with someone, feminist or not, calling me that. Also, too, watching Slut Walk unfold in my own town, I realised that the emphasis shifted from a clear feminist aim and message to something a little hazier. Many of the participants in our local slut walk were teenage girls who just liked the idea of getting dressed up and having a fun day out rather than acknowledging that this was a protest. I was particularly disgusted when I realised one of the women involved in organising our local evident had actually slut-shamed my housemate just a month earlier by telling anyone who would listen that my housemate is "just a slut". There are some interesting feminist critiques of Slut Walk here: http://www.feministfrequency.com/2011/0 … -slutwalk/

Lustful · 25-09-11 09:19:53

I believe in freedom of self expression.

I must say that intolerance should be expected by some or many when participating in an even such as "slut walk." Like many organizations, the creators of this event used a term--slut--considered as pejorative for women who are deemed easy or less than virtuous by whatever community standards are applied and attempted to invest the word slut with independence. I have mixed feelings about such an event. I don't think independence comes from displays, but comes from freedom. And freedom isn't necessarily exercising your free will to do whatever seems freeing or will appear to be. Freedom is also strength and showing restraint.

Nevertheless, I am for freedom of self expression.

Last edited by Lustful (26-09-11 00:52:27)

blissed · 25-09-11 23:47:57

Yeah I wouldn't have used the word slut to name the walks but it was nice to see the principle asserted in the mainstream right up there on the news that not correcting to modesty means you still maintain your choice and consent. Something really important previously only hidden from the mainstream in a few blogs and forums. The next slut walk isn't going to make the news so another vehicle will take the message on.

I think the walks have taken the edge off the word as an insult and twisted it a little towards good karma. I won't be using it though, unless I'm talking about slut walks.

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aven frey · 06-10-11 00:44:29

domC wrote:

Many of the participants in our local slut walk were teenage girls who just liked the idea of getting dressed up and having a fun day out rather than acknowledging that this was a protest
/

I actually think this is awesome. That's the ulitmate fuck you to anyone who should like to use the word slut as a weapon and lets face it, teenage girls are on the frontlines when it comes to slut shaming, sometimes on both sides, sometimes at the same time!

domC · 06-10-11 01:44:44

Yeah, I definitely hadn't thought of it in that way. I wasn't uncomfortable with the idea of teenagers getting involved in something that, in theory, examines sexual politics - more that I wasn't sure how effectively it got the message across. I assume people are more likely to take articulate and informed women seriously than they are a group of teenage girls who are just going along for the ride and who, when asked about why they are protesting, would probably be unable to give a coherent answer. I get worried that movements like Slutwalk lose their meaning when participants are not acting under a unified cause and are unable to justify their actions. As you say, teenage girls are on the frontline of this and their positions are confused to the point that they can simultaneously be slut-shaming and reclaiming "slut" and "sluttiness". For teenage girls, I don't know if slutwalk is the answer - I honestly question whether a fifteen year old girl is really going to learn to decode the term when they are encouraged to think about it on a level as shallow as wearing fishnets and something transparent and waving a dicky sign around. When I see a group of teenage girls say stuff like "I can dress like a slut, if I want to", that seems to me like they're missing the point and it also frightens me a little (again - see point about reclaiming a word like "slut"). Eh - clearly I am a bit uncomfortable with it all, but when I was fifteen, I would have been on the frontline with my little quirky banner and some outrageous outfit, having a great time without actually absorbing any information or really thinking about my actions.

aven frey · 06-10-11 02:24:46

Sometimes I think I was smarter as a teenager than I am now, or more motivated or something! I was definitely more political. I know I understood the patriachal control stuff behind the word slut and even though I was called frigid instead I remember the damage it caused some of my friends if they ever flaunted even a little autonomous sexuality. Even if most teenagers aren't able to articulate their motivations in a way that comes later with bacholor degrees I think they probably feel the power of deconstructing the word slut in a way that could possibly be lost if it were not fun and somewhat playful.

I do get what you're saying, it is a very complicated issue. I just like the idea of some young lass laughing in the face of the guy who calls her a slut when she will or will not put out because she saw a bunch of girls her own age on the news or the internet (or where ever the young peeps hang out these days!) laughing in the face of the power construct that allows slut to be such loaded and emotional put down. And I like the idea of another young lass thinking twice about calling the girl who made out with the guy she likes a slut because she marched that one day in fishnets. And mostly I like the idea that soon it will be completely unacceptable to ever say she was asking for it. I feel like that'll never happen in my generation!

domC · 06-10-11 02:40:05

Yeah, I work with teenage girls on a day-to-day basis. I definitely see some who are intelligent and articulate and absolutely agree that teenagers are often politically active and motivated in a way that seems to get lost often soon after they hit uni. I also think that teenagers have the intellectual capacity to understand what's going on around them and to begin to look at their world critically, but that all of that needs to be guided, to some extent, and a parade may not be the way. I'd love to have some kind of program run in schools for girls that looks at consent, empowerment, language and media, in a way that doesn't talk down to teenagers, but acknowledges that teenagers are still on their intellectual L-plates and are impressionable and highly motivated. I think that would be an awesome way to tackle some of these issues and to potentially start undoing all the centuries of slut-shaming bullshit that's gone on. I do admire how Slutwalk encourages resilience and strength in women and since this post started, I've met some other people who were involved with our local Slutwalk who did inspire me. I think I am edging towards sitting on the fence for the whole matter. Isn't that useful?

blissed · 07-10-11 01:56:23

Slut is ridiculous as an insult because it's the sexual default setting for all humans, so I think an affectionate ridicule is the new meaning including when men use it about each other

When we stop saying a womans sexy clothes are provocative without thinking how ridiculous that would sound to say a mans sexy clothes are provocative, and that someone has no right to feel they can be ludicrously "provoked" into rude and disrespectful behaviour just because of something someone else is wearing!!! Then we've won.

Yeah I've never heard anyone say
"We'll Dan those shorts are a bit provocative"

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viva · 07-10-11 03:20:24

Blissed, check out these boy sluts. Man even in jest in this atmosphere I am pretty uncomfortable with calling them that. What does slut even mean?

Anyway that's a good group of photos but the real gold is the troll-and-response in the comments, unfortunately unrelated to this topic.

blissed · 07-10-11 11:09:37

Viva I'm uncomfortable usiung it at all outside the term slut walk and won't be. I'm talking about people who use it as a joke (ncluding empathic men) within an awareness of the topic inside the debate like at the beginning of this video http://www.youtube.com/user/carlincherr … OR_zM61ODg

If people want to use it inside the specific topic or debate as an insult impact reducer I'm OK with that, but if people use it outside that specific context then it's self defeating and slut concept promoting. I think the possibility of the word being used in that way is what people are uneasy about and that's what would be happening if you called the guys sluts in your link, when the link doesn't feature the word.

Back to the video though, I like the idea of the orgasmic sisterhood spreading the word in colleges. I haven't seen any updates about how that went. Though I always miss their live webcasts I think because of the time difference.

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blissed · 08-10-11 15:26:08

The same debate at Dods and Ross on the why's of slut walks has pulled this out my head so I thought I'd share it here too.

I think everyone admits there is a problem and already is conscious of what they're wearing and where they are but what people are saying is the need to do that is unsatisfactory and feels unfair. If there were lots of muggings in a nieghbourhood then everyone would individually take avoidance precautions until it reached a point where they all got together and said, hey these pecautions are restrictive even intrusive, we wanna go out in the evening and we want a nicer environment, let's analyse the causes of this problem and actively start to change it. That's what's happening, not just with slut walks but with all the other manifistations of this sentiment as well.

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Redmango · 08-10-11 20:39:48

In the original referenced article (offsite, by Elle), she describes her personal ability for self-defense and her confidence to confront her assaulter with success (to say nothing of the added power of rage). I really think there is no substitute for knowing that you can protect yourself even if your authorities won't (be they bouncers, police, or whomever).

As for "she was asking for it"... Here's my take. I believe that all people, men and women, want to be noticed and want to feel attractive and desirable. This doesn't seem mysterious to me, and it even seems like something that absolutely everyone can understand. The hook is that she is asking for attention, which is simply admiration, be it subtle or obvious. Try though I may to avoid staring, I stare. I can't help it. I don't even know that I'm doing it. But staring is a far cry from personal asssault.

Some people just don't understand the rules, or don't perceive any consequences for their behavior, or don't care about the consequences, or don't understand the consequences.

I actually have a theory that addresses this, but it's not really the center of this topic, and I don't want to steal the thread. I will make a separate post, though, and try to link it here.

=== EDIT ===
http://forum.ifeelmyself.com/forum/view … 621#p87621
This is a link to my forum post, which is ... very long, but... I think, well written.

Last edited by Redmango (08-10-11 22:33:42)

blissed · 16-10-11 00:13:36

This is my rather ugly T-shirt design, if I go on a slut walk. It costs £18 so it's probably better as a placard, navy with white tape lettering.

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WLV612 · 31-10-11 17:34:23

I just wrote a long post, question really, after reading all of the above posts.
Deleted it, wrote another and trashed that.
Kind of a tangential thought. Perhaps another time.

But I agree with about 99% of what I read. Good thread.

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the whys of slut walks

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