are you a boy or a girl or a

viva · 10-06-11 02:29:16

A flurry of discussion has been prompted lately, triggered by a few events in the media centered around gender and ones choice thereof. There was the addition of a 3rd gender to Nepalese census forms - a first in the whole world and surprising from such a traditional country. This is not so controversial, mostly just good - while census forms aren't exactly the be all end all of societal acceptance, it is a step in the right direction - assuming it doesn't lead to more organized persecution somewhere down the line.

Then, there was this wild and crazy couple in Canada raising their child 'genderless' - ie, the child, Storm, is neither a boy or a girl, or perhaps both, until s/he decides how s/he wants to identify.

While this is interesting on lots of levels, it's not exactly new - there have been a few different cases of similar child-rearing tactics. what surprised me most was how very upset everyone is over it. People are taking this so personally. So I bring the questions here, to a sound group of open-minded thinkers well-accustomed to questions of sexuality - so.

Is it manipulative or unfair somehow not to divulge the sex of your child to your family/community? Is forcing your child to make a choice the same as imposing gender issues on them that they may not have had, otherwise?

how possible is it to truly raise a child in society who doesn't know girls are supposed to play with dolls?

I liked to wear my dad's boots with pink dresses and carry a bow and arrow. Aren't kids naturally going to search out their own preferences, no matter how we dress them? if we say we can control a child's sexual orientation and gender by raising them inside or outside their accepted gender roles, we are saying that we can make a boy gay by dressing him all in pink - which is clearly not true.

Here's where I get potentially offensive, but this is the question I am actually interested in after all this talk.

I think we intelligent folk can agree that as humans, there's no law, natural or otherwise that says we have to identify with the body we're born into. So, how far does our freedom of choice extends before we pass into the realm of absurdity or even insanity? Sure, you can look like a woman and identify as a man, but but can you look like a Canadian woman and identify as a Cambodian man? Religion is a choice - how about race? Gender is a choice -but why am I crazy if I identify as feline? If I meow and get fur grafts?

Ok, just some random Friday morning curiosity. Blissed, you seem especially well-versed on the topic of flexible gender assignations, so maybe you can help shed some light on this.

blissed · 10-06-11 03:22:08

Our view of gender is very rigid and that's hammered into us right from an early age http://shop.mattel.com/category/index.j … Id=4213484 so we genderise everything from pink to flowers. Penis owners like pink flowers and they have gardens so why not receive a birthday card with the flowers they love to see out the window. Sometimes people identify as a woman because the stereotypical male doesn't describe them but they are actually male so the way they are and others like them is part of a broad diversity of being a penis owner and the same with people who are female. Trans sexual doesn't mean in transition but having attributes associated with the opposite sex. We should accept people who don't identify specifically with either sex. All these labels are only for convenience they don't define us. Diversity in a species is key to it's survival and all these states and sexual preferences are a natural part of being one of a diverse population and human.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqaUZkf52fs

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Last edited by blissed (10-06-11 03:35:15)

Xebeche · 10-06-11 09:59:12

Not joining the discussion per se, today, but wanted to drop this in :

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119590/

For God's sakes, do not watch the trailer. I love the French, I really do, but it seems everyone in charge of making trailers for non-blockbuster French films that will be seen in English speaking lands feels the need to completely distort the actual gist of the movie in order to sell it.

A warning: Have a box of tissues handy. There is pain.

viva · 27-06-11 08:50:06

Just in case this topic interests anyone as much as it does me, here's an article I read today about a genderless preschool in Sweden. I quite like the idea of boys and girls playing together without disney princess and bob the builder being driven into their heads right away - plenty of time for that later on. It interests me though that the idea of teaching kids to play house with three mommies sends a thrill of emotion through me - I am more attached to traditional family roles than I think I am, it seems, even though I grew up in a nontraditional home. Are you?

Whee! Fun brain food.

theant · 28-06-11 00:33:23

This interests me too, though it also disturbs me. While I support absolutely any attempt to abolish discrimination or unfair advantage between the sexes, this school seems to be wedded to the impossible notion that children can be brought up perceiving no difference between the sexes. All the scientific research I have read about in recent years suggests that there is a difference between male and female instinctive behaviour, and this is nature more than nurture. Can we not accept that female and male are different but equal, rather than trying to pretend they are the same thing?

Last edited by theant (28-06-11 00:34:54)

aven frey · 28-06-11 01:41:36

nope, not at all. The idea of three mommies seems like a far better proposition than what I grew up with! I know a couple of kids that are growing up, as we speak in nontraditional homes and they really seem to be awesome little specimens. I also think you, Viva are a pretty awesome specimen.

I kinda think that we really suck at the moment as a society and that tradition plays a big role in that sucking. I like it when people or in this case an institution questions traditional constructs and sees them for the potential harm they can cause.

I have to say I hate this kind of reasoning-

"The kind of things that boys like to do - run around and turn sticks into swords - will soon be disapproved of," he said. "So gender neutrality at its worst is emasculating maleness."

What the fuck. Why is everything always emasculating? It's not, and I didn't see anything in that article that would suggest that a kids natural play would be disapproved of. If anything it would be given far more opportunity to express it's natural self. Some boys will still go and play with swords but some will play with dolls, that is not emasculating, it's evolution. Finally. As long as the sword play stays play, cause then there are different issues.

Yes the ant, women and men are different, every single one of them and for so many rigid gender constructs fuck up their youth and then sometimes their adulthood. I don't see this kindergarten as being wedded to impossible notions but giving kids a healthy start at creating a future for themselves where they can challenge binary constructs and question tradition as it applies to their experience as people.

Last edited by bobby (28-06-11 01:43:18)

viva · 28-06-11 01:47:15

I think this school is not attempting to abolish gender, only to leave it up to the kids to identify and express themselves with objects, colours, and family roles they prefer, instead of the ones they are supposed to like, which children are often indoctrinated in from the very beginning.

In a similar way, when I care for children, if I draw something they stop imagining their own things and begin to copy mine. So I try as much as possible not to set examples when it comes to creativity and how to play, simply because it's much more beautiful and interesting to watch them figure out what they want to do, instead of just imitating or letting others entertain them.

Kids are so interested in colors and shapes and fabrics and without being told they should, will not automatically choose blue over pink because they are "a boy". They have no idea if they are a boy or a girl. They may choose pink when they're feeling pink, blue when they're feeling blue, may wear dresses and pants and fireman hats and nothing at all depending on their mood, and it's good to let them choose.

Society is changing and humans are evolving right along with it, and I think this straying from what we imagine to be written-in-stone gender roles - ie. women are soft and nurturing, men are active and protective - is a part of that change.

I heard a story recently about a pack of baboons in the wild - baboons and large apes in general are known for having aggressive males and violent shows of domination and display. The idea of this changing is like a fantasy story, it cannot change, this behavior is written in their genes.

However, this particular pack ate the wrong bit of meat and all but a few of their males succumbed to TB and died. The remaining males displayed very odd behavior - sitting side by side, grooming each other, and showing almost no vestige of the alpha-male patterns which are typical in baboons. This is not so spectacular, except that this behavior continued for 20 years, and still continues - long after those originally affected baboons were gone, and since adolescent male baboons migrate to other groups, it means that strange young males, coming to this group, had adopted their peaceful ways - in other words, despite their genetics.... they changed.

We can change too. In our world, defined gender roles simply aren't necessary the way they once were - for example, women may be smaller in general and not as strong, but there are many new ways to protect themselves and their babies. There's been a huge movement to re-educate society, make it OK for women to wear pants and drive cars and maybe not marry. Maybe letting boys wear dresses and hold hands if they wanna is simply the next step.

viva · 28-06-11 01:48:43

omg so long o.o

aven frey · 30-06-11 08:56:23

what about dudes who want to be lesbian bloggers (etc.) on the Internet?

blissed · 30-06-11 10:50:23

It's OK if it's a way for that person to express true trans sexuality. Then it's just ike dressing as the opposite sex and looking so good you are mistaken for the opposite sex.and I'm happy to post along side someone like that wether I know they're transexual or not and I'm pretty sure you would never know the difference. But if the reason is sexualy expoititive in a cynical and selfish way no, I wouldn't exept that. If they fantisize and invent tragedies like being raped or kidnapped or host a lesbian site and interact and give advise on tragedy and then when found out have their picture taken beaming a smile like it's a big joke no.

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TZO2K10 · 02-07-11 22:52:26

Let's forget about gender role for a moment and consider the benefit of an actual matriarchy for once. Just how would it benefit society?

What would the strengths and weakness be as compared to the strengths and weakness of the traditional Patriarchal rule?

I see the future fully supporting a Matriarchy, but would also like to have a combination of both...I'm guessing that the sexual roles would naturally follow...We need a new tradition.

viva wrote:

omg so long o.o

Perfect solutions are meant to be explained in long detail sometimes.

Last edited by TZO2K10 (02-07-11 22:55:06)

viva · 04-07-11 01:30:48

I honestly don't see the future supporting a matriarchy, most because by the time the big boys get their tongues off their own balls I reckon we will be welcoming our new robot kings, but that's not really here nor there.

I don't know that society as a whole is interested in a matriarchy. That was interesting when we were worshiping feminine nature spirits and cared about passing legacies either to the girl side or the boy side, but at this point, the upsurge in flexible gender assignations, transsexuality, and little gender-neutral pre-schools say to me that society is working towards transcending gender as a limiting or promotive factor at all.

blissed · 04-07-11 03:01:43

When I'm old I'm gonna print and assemble a robot that can pull your head off with one hand. In fact it'll print and assemble another 10 of itself all highly skilled to maintain and expand my house, grow my food and go out and collect more raw materials to make and build more stuff to improve my life.

In a world where everyone is so autonomous, with dwindling regional or international interdependence, conflict is more likely and we're gonna need a behavioural trait that de-escalates aggression at least down to hurtful comments rather than escalating aggression up to nuclear bombs. I'll let you draw your own conclusions about which sex the desirable trait will come from but don't forget the Dalai Lama is a man and Sarah Palin is a woman…

When I talk about the future of robots I love to show the 3 min video of Bigdog from boston dynamics who have figured out the holy grail of balance and dynamic falling (watch it running near the end) and are currently working on a dextrous biped. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNZPRsrwumQ

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Last edited by blissed (04-07-11 03:08:42)

TZO2K10 · 04-07-11 06:48:56

viva wrote:

I honestly don't see the future supporting a matriarchy, most because by the time the big boys get their tongues off their own balls I reckon we will be welcoming our new robot kings, but that's not really here nor there.
I don't know that society as a whole is interested in a matriarchy. That was interesting when we were worshiping feminine nature spirits and cared about passing legacies either to the girl side or the boy side, but at this point, the upsurge in flexible gender assignations, transsexuality, and little gender-neutral pre-schools say to me that society is working towards transcending gender as a limiting or promotive factor at all.

I would welcome that scenario as well, just so long as we actually have a future for us to evolve to, and hopefully the baby boomers and the Gen-X'ers (Myself included) haven't entirely screwed up our world for the twenty-something/newborn generation and their future children's children!

blissed wrote:

When I'm old I'm gonna print and assemble a robot that can pull your head off with one hand. In fact it'll print and assemble another 10 of itself all highly skilled to maintain and expand my house, grow my food and go out and collect more raw materials to make and build more stuff to improve my life.
In a world where everyone is so autonomous, with dwindling regional or international interdependence, conflict is more likely and we're gonna need a behavioural trait that de-escalates aggression at least down to hurtful comments rather than escalating aggression up to nuclear bombs. I'll let you draw your own conclusions about which sex the desirable trait will come from but don't forget the Dalai Lama is a man and Sarah Palin is a woman…
When I talk about the future of robots I love to show the 3 min video of Bigdog from boston dynamics who have figured out the holy grail of balance and dynamic falling (watch it running near the end) and are currently working on a dextrous biped. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNZPRsrwumQ

A very interesting and profound perspective, one I'll enjoy thinking on, and maybe try to build upon your view, as I have my own perspective about the true enemy of peaceful/cooperative progress for our species..It is the hostile mind that holds everything back and even destroys any attempt for social progress.

BTW, thanks for posting that youtube vid, now I have something to get my geek-on with!

Last edited by TZO2K10 (04-07-11 06:49:27)

aven frey · 06-07-11 03:49:32

http://philosophybites.com/2011/06/alis … ation.html

Kinda off topic but I thought this was an interesting addition to some of the things being spoken about here, especially by Viva.

viva · 06-07-11 06:30:08

Thanks bobby, I especially loved the part where she says that evolution designed children to be the research and development division for humanity. Especially in this context a movement towards neutralizing gender as a restraint and expanding the concept of family from the get-go seems like a future solution to many current equal-rights headaches. Get 'em while the brain's still stretchy, that's what I like to say.

also thanks for introducing me to philosophy bites.. this is fucking hot.

blissed · 06-07-11 14:11:09

Bobby thanks for the link, We can't be 100% sure of everything, so we have to make up what we don't know with intuitive guesses and imagination gives us the ability to make them. Without intuitive geusses we couldn't function or even walk on anything but a totally flat surface.

I think the difference between children and adults is adults lose the freedom to develop imagination and mental plasticity and become conservative. because the adults who do retain it and experiment are non conformist and very often called weird. So just like any part of our bodies, if we don't exercise and develop our imagination it can atrophy. but similarly it can be revived and that happened to a whole generation in the 60s, when a changed culture gave them the freedom to develop their imagination, explore free thought and they turned out very different from their parents.

Viva I think giving people a better gender outlook with a gender neutral upbringing would be great. But if we want them to think for themselves and retain a good imagination the phenomena of adult mental plasticity could effect the outcome. Humanist gender equality parents can have Muslim adult children, and Mormons can have adult Atheist non mormon children.

So I think a gender neutral upbringing could work on an important subconscious level, but making that a long term cultural conscious decision may still require us to make a good persuasive case to our kids. Or not, it's success may be self evident, hope so.

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Last edited by blissed (06-07-11 15:32:44)

blissed · 07-07-11 16:54:21

Hres a good reason why I think neutralising gender or any stereotype labels wil be successful.

Johanna Blakley, Social media and the end of gender.

http://www.ted.com/talks/johanna_blakle … ender.html

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Last edited by blissed (07-07-11 16:54:43)

WLV612 · 19-08-11 13:40:41

blissed wrote:

Our view of gender is very rigid and that's hammered into us right from an early age http://shop.mattel.com/category/index.j … Id=4213484 so we genderise everything from pink to flowers. Penis owners like pink flowers and they have gardens so why not receive a birthday card with the flowers they love to see out the window. Sometimes people identify as a woman because the stereotypical male doesn't describe them but they are actually male so the way they are and others like them is part of a broad diversity of being a penis owner and the same with people who are female. Trans sexual doesn't mean in transition but having attributes associated with the opposite sex. We should accept people who don't identify specifically with either sex. All these labels are only for convenience they don't define us. Diversity in a species is key to it's survival and all these states and sexual preferences are a natural part of being one of a diverse population and human.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqaUZkf52fs
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That's one of the most intelligent, insightful posts I've ever read regarding gender issues.
I'm comfortable with who I am and since the age of 11, have identified much more with girls/women than males. I'm 100% male and I have a lot of, "Guy" stuff that is as much a part of me as my other likes/dislikes.
But I'm not comfortable at having been forced by society to hide what I consider to be the most beautiful way of seeing things around me which as women do.
This is really difficult to impart as it's not easy to pin point. I find it interesting in viewing the bio's of different performers on the site who have the same taste in films, literature and music as do I. What's more amazing id the age difference and how our lives were shaped from an early age.
A thirty year inhabitant of a very male dominated work environment, I still have maintained my love for Jane Austen, flowers, women's fashion (Not to wear but to admire.) Broadway shows. A life long admirer of perhaps two of the most beautiful women in the world, Audrey Hepburn and Carole Lombard, I have to keep my collection of their photographs hidden as if they were part of some deep dark secret I can't be allowed to display for fear of persecution.
Setting aside the sexual aspect of this site, just listening to the chat of some of the gals here leaves me with the impression that these women would make simply good people to hang out with. To be friends with.
I know a good many of members who read this will think, "Who's he trying to kid?"
But blissed's post leads me to believe that there are people who, "get it".
That makes me feel less alone.

blissed · 22-08-11 13:09:34

Thanks WL! Carole Lombard looks gorgeous,

can't see why pics of her mark you out as not being heterosexual manly. The requirement to be manly seems to be a male social requirement, androsexuals who might desire us have more fluid tastes. I know a lot of people find him annoying but a lot of people who desire manly men also desire justine Beiber as they did Donny Osmond and before him Davie Jones of the monkeys. Real desires are as diverse as the way people we desire really are. I think as gynosexual males we can get culturally brainwashed and then trapped in a one dimensional desire for fictional young virgins who are unable to respond let alone desire us, with half of our sexual motivation coming from the need to impress other males (i.e. catcalling and boasting) It has nothing to do with reality. Someone at their sexual debut will have big desires for you, and 10, 20 or 30 years later because of their desires, knowledge and experience they're usually way hotter than at their sexual debut, pretty much all of us are. Not saying powerplay isn't a big part of sex but at it's best it's dynamic and varied and having everyone conform to one notion of sexuality that not only dictates a strict gender binary, but also dictates everything about our lives that has little or nothing to do with sex is beyond stupid I think.

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Last edited by blissed (22-08-11 16:09:31)

WLV612 · 23-08-11 16:53:51

Thanks for posting Carole's photo. I won't get started on what has been 50 year long love affair with one of the most iconic female actors in film history. However, as a woman who enjoyed and embraced a lot of, "Manly" pursuits, she kind of slides into this thread.
Reading through all of the earlier posts, I'm clearly out of my depth in intellect.
Very compelling and thought provoking views brilliantly set forth by members.
A bit intimidating, in fact.
The male/female relationship in humans ceased to be a biological necessity thousands of years ago. The blurring of gender lines followed as humans evolved.
So why do so many people and cultures cling to a system that has become a moot point?
Cultural guidelines of course. Different mindsets.
It's beyond me. Has been for many years.
I was ahead of my boyhood chums as I had a girlfriend much earlier than was "normal" for that period in time.
This girl, who had relocated from Germany, was unlike anyone I'd ever met. Quiet, serene and peaceful, I realized almost from the start of our friendship that not only did I want to be with her, I wanted to be like her. Not physically but to possess the same grace and level of being comfortable within herself. Qualities lacking in the boys and most of the girls my age.
Without knowing, she shaped my life forever. Her mother was the very same. Always had a slight smile as if she was so content inside that her joy couldn't be contained.
I'm dealing with this macho ethic, macho culture and yes, there are and have always been "guy" things I enjoy. It's only in the past few years, with the help of the internet, that I've discovered one need over ride the other.
For a long time, I thought I was insane and was nearly driven to a rash act before I was able to suppress a part of me that made me feel at peace with myself.
It's at once odd and comforting that this topic should have a platform on this site.
At the risk of sounding phony or whatever, I view many of the performers (Is there a better term? I'm not comfortable with, "performer".) from a different perspective than I thought possible. Maybe that's a certain amount of maturity I never had before. (Age does not always equate to maturity.)
I don't really know. There's a lot of charm to be found here and often in the smallest details.
Kind of a "gut level" post. Not educated enough to go much further.

DubMan · 24-08-11 21:44:19

Ways of labeling somebody as a man or a woman are inherited culturally; like Simone de Beauvoir said, "One is not born a woman, one becomes one."

Nepal's adding a third gender to their census form is certainly interesting, but personally I feel as though the next "great cultural leap forward," to use asinine Hegelian language, will be when being asked gender won't make a difference - when it isn't asked at all. The Swedish school's official "We're not telling you what to be" policy seems like a really brilliant step in this direction. I just feel as though trying to use some totalizing and metaphysical adjectives to describe a part of a person that is so characterizing and complex is just futile. I always find it to be the case that further explanation is necessary regardless - even asking somebody what it means to be a "man" or a "woman" requires essays after essays worth of explanation written by people who spend most of their lives trying to conceptualize the topic.

More to the point, I feel like we're getting to the point where labeling ourselves as men or women isn't actually affecting our character. I find that the people I appreciate the most in my life are people who exhibit character qualities that one could say are drawn both from archetypically "male" and "female" sources. I find that I really appreciate women who exhibit "masculine" characteristics such as irrational stubbornness, oafishness, and uncompromisingness (I just invented that word, don't give a shit). On the same note, I really appreciate men who are unconditionally caring, know how to cook and do crafts, and act flamboyantly for its own sake. The day where we're forced to analyze our relationships with individual people above the importance of all other kinds of relationships is a day I look forward to.

Maybe I'm just being some color-blind moron. Thoughts?

Last edited by DubMan (25-08-11 09:40:58)

blissed · 24-08-11 22:01:45

DubMan wrote:

The day where we're forced to analyze our relationships with individual people above the importance of all other kinds relationships is a day I look forward to.?

That's nice I like that.

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WLV612 · 25-08-11 13:13:59

blissed wrote:

DubMan wrote:
The day where we're forced to analyze our relationships with individual people above the importance of all other kinds relationships is a day I look forward to.?
That's nice I like that.
.

That's very nicely stated. Your entire post is the same.
None of what you posted would qualify you to be any sort of a moron in my opinion.
Given the thought and insight in the posts in this thread, I should check out some of the other topics.
I'm awed by the level of discussion presented here.
Lot of philosophy, Psych, majors, it would seem.
This entire site is unique in many ways I didn't think possible.
I'm not capable of holding up my end in a discussion such as this but I learn a great deal and am given to reflection on the views of others.
Well done.

WLV612 · 25-10-11 16:38:18

I thought I'd drag this thread up from the back for two reasons.
One, the attention that transgendered people are receiving at the moment because of one certain high profile F2M.
The other reason is a bit odd.
This goes back a few years. Before I joined this site, but I think about it now and again.
A short time before I came here, I had been on another site, a social site but not FB or anything like that. More specific to people of my background.
Made friends with a member who was about 23 years younger but we had some similar background in schooling, jobs and just hit it off. Good friends as far as computer relationships go.
Emailed about everyday. Then she tells me she's a pre-op M2F transgender. Okay. That's fine, good luck with that and let's move on.
Just doesn't concern me. I had only seen her photos as a male before Her HRT and her changing her look toward the female side. Then she sent me more recent photos.
I was unaware of just how dramatic HRT changes can be. I did a bit of research and was even more surprised.
I thought it about for a bit and then dropped off the site and stopped communication with her.
Thoughts?

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