So let's rant about books

kronocide · 07-07-06 21:05:55

There is already a movie thread and a comics thread, and just now I noted that the movie thread may be mutating into a book thread, so I thought to myself, why not endow that after all somewhat classic and respectable art form with its own thread? (And why not start it off with an appropriately convoluted sentence, hmm?)

I think the topic was favorite beginnings and ends. That made me think of Stanislaw Lem's "Memoirs Found in a Bathtub," where the final event of the story is told, or rather suggested, in the title of the book but not in the final chapter. You have to revisit the book's cover to understand how it all ends, and it makes perfect sense in the narrative context. (Damn you literate people, you made me say "narrative context.") So I guess that makes the title both the beginning and the end of the book. I confess a weakness for clevernesses like that. (Yep, clevernesses.)

Lem otherwise manages to out-kafka Kafka in this book, telling a story that is strangely amusing in its hopelessness and fatalism. It may not seem awfully relevant today seeing how it is a satire over the communist system in Poland. Then again it may. Details here.

Last edited by kronocide (07-07-06 21:31:14)

bodyhead · 08-07-06 04:05:17

Obviously I haven't read it, but it sounds rather too intellectualised and obvious to me, compared to Kafka. One could only 'out-kafka Kafka by paring him down, as Beckett did, particularly in his late pieces like 'The Lost Ones'.

I read Muriel Spark for clverness. She's about the cleverest writer I've ever read - like 'The Driver's Seat' where a woman arranges her own murder.

Last edited by bodyhead (08-07-06 04:05:53)

kronocide · 08-07-06 08:21:24

bodyhead wrote:

Obviously I haven't read it, but it sounds rather too intellectualised and obvious to me, compared to Kafka.

You could be right, but let's have that discussion when you've read the book.

I read Muriel Spark for clverness. She's about the cleverest writer I've ever read - like 'The Driver's Seat' where a woman arranges her own murder.

Although I like Lem I wouldn't call him the cleverest writer I've read (or indeed the best, or indeed better than Kafka), it was just that particular feature of having the title as the end of the book I referred to. (By the way, there's no way of understanding how the title reveals the end without reading the book, so there are no spoilers here.)

Last edited by kronocide (08-07-06 09:04:47)

The_West_Wind · 08-07-06 10:56:59

I read alot of Terry Pratchet.

It all started with Witches and Wizards, but sadly, I think the corporate wowsers got to him because Terry seems to be doing more and more books on the Ankh-Morepork city watch. Not that I'm complaining, I like the stories, but he gave Rincewind the Wizzard (how Rincewind spells it, for those unfamiliar with the series) such an abrupt ending that it is as if he's dissapeared off the face of the disc again.

Elfman · 08-07-06 12:32:35

Why is it that whenever someone introduces one of these "What are your favourite......" threads I can never remember any? It's only later when someone else mentions something that I think "Oh yes. That was great!!". Anyway.....This is probably where I show myself up as the philostine on the site:

LOTR and The Silmarilion.
Catch 22.
The White Hotel
Frank Herbert's "Dune" series.
The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
Anything by Albert Camus
Kafka's Metamorphosis and Other Stories (I do like short stories)

My problem is that although I was once an avid reader I rarely have the time or inclination to open a book these days. I've just got out the habit I suppose.

The_West_Wind wrote:

I read alot of Terry Pratchet. It all started with Witches and Wizards, but sadly, I think the corporate wowsers got to him because Terry seems to be doing more and more books on the Ankh-Morepork city watch. Not that I'm complaining, I like the stories, but he gave Rincewind the Wizzard (how Rincewind spells it, for those unfamiliar with the series) such an abrupt ending that it is as if he's dissapeared off the face of the disc again.

Have you ever read/seen any of Stephen Briggs dramatised versions of the Discworld novels TWW? Wyrd Sisters and Mort are probably the most popular.

Elfman.

Last edited by Elfman (08-07-06 12:41:57)

The_West_Wind · 08-07-06 12:43:39

I have a collection of his scripts and with my contacts in local theatre I have put forward a proposal to have one of them staged. So far I havent been able to present a proposed budget for one of the scripts (I'd like to do Mort, but Wyrd Sisters seems to be more do-able due to a lower cast number). I may try again after this current production.

I also have the Animated series of Soul Music. I wanted to get Wyrd Sisters too, but it was too pricey.

Elfman · 08-07-06 12:50:57

The_West_Wind wrote:

I have a collection of his scripts and with my contacts in local theatre I have put forward a proposal to have one of them staged. So far I havent been able to present a proposed budget for one of the scripts (I'd like to do Mort, but Wyrd Sisters seems to be more do-able due to a lower cast number). I may try again after this current production.
I also have the Animated series of Soul Music. I wanted to get Wyrd Sisters too, but it was too pricey.

Step into my office TWW. I directed Wyrd Sisters for a local group last year. I don't want to hijack this thread with going into detail here but I'll email you some stuff. (I also played The Duke. Great fun but F'ing difficult). I did it with a cast of 17 and that included a lot of doubling for minor characters. You'd be pushed doing with less I think).

Elfman

The_West_Wind · 08-07-06 13:01:59

Please do, my e-mail is attached.

Right now we have just started one of the largest productions our company has taken on in a long time. We can work something out.

Elfman · 08-07-06 13:10:11

The_West_Wind wrote:

Please do, my e-mail is attached.
Right now we have just started one of the largest productions our company has taken on in a long time. We can work something out.

I'd love to hear more of this but this is probably not the place. I'll email.

Right everyone. Carry on. Talk about books.

Elfman.

blissed · 08-07-06 13:20:43

Books have got too many words, they should all be made into films and then the books should be berried deep in the ground where nobody can find them.

Eccept the first 2 Harry potter

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kronocide · 08-07-06 13:28:59

Elfman wrote:

Why is it that whenever someone introduces one of these "What are your favourite......" threads I can never remember any? It's only later when someone else mentions something that I think "Oh yes. That was great!!".

I'm exactly the same way, and it doesn't matter if it's about films, music, or literature. In fact I shocked myself yesterday by realizing that I had more poetry, and romantic 19th century stuff at that, at the front of my mind than regular prose. I have never thought of myself as a poetry person.

It may be because whenever I have the time and inclination to read a book these days I have three or four that I must read for some course or other. I've been trying to read both Foucault's Pendulum and Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, but I'm just not getting anywhere. I try to read when I go to bed but by then I'm so tired I fall asleep after 1½ page.

I didn't have a TV or a computer for two years a few years back, and spent the whole winter reading in the bathtub. Back then I could read a novel in one sitting (but I had to pour in more warm water a few times). Those were the days.

Trivia of the Day: The Spanish "olé" that we have heard chanted all through the World Cup is a distortion of Arabic "Allah," and has its roots in Moorish Spain.

Last edited by kronocide (08-07-06 13:34:15)

Elfman · 08-07-06 16:04:24

blissed wrote:

Books have got too many words, they should all be made into films and then the books should be berried deep in the ground where nobody can find them. .

Oh yes. Fahrenheit 451 (Ray Bradbury) That's a good one .

Elfman.

Siobhan · 08-07-06 16:47:02

Elfman wrote:

My problem is that although I was once an avid reader I rarely have the time or inclination to open a book these days. Elfman.

So true of me as well, but then I think about how very much time I've allowed myself to waste, er, um, INVEST! in this site

I wonder if the net has afftected us all in this manner, in the sense that with boards and blogging, one has the opportunity to interact with actual people in some semblance of real time.

There is a balance to the pleasure of a book, though. To delve into words that have been carefully crafted, winnowed and distilled to an essential telling is a pleasure unlike any other.

For myself, it's just increasingly rare that I find books I WANT to invest that much time into. Am I alone in thinking that true literature (define that however you like) is less and less available? Maybe because of the pressures of the marketing system, forcing authors to come out with a book every so-many months. I would never agree to such a requirement, regardless of how tempting it would be.

Elfman, you mentioned The White Hotel. Now, that surely qualifies for the list of great (as well as greatly sexy) beginnings, yes? Does anyone have it handy?

Elfman · 08-07-06 17:32:46

Siobhan wrote:

Elfman wrote:
My problem is that although I was once an avid reader I rarely have the time or inclination to open a book these days. Elfman.
So true of me as well, but then I think about how very much time I've allowed myself to waste, er, um, INVEST! in this site
I wonder if the net has afftected us all in this manner, in the sense that with boards and blogging, one has the opportunity to interact with actual people in some semblance of real time.
There is a balance to the pleasure of a book, though. To delve into words that have been carefully crafted, winnowed and distilled to an essential telling is a pleasure unlike any other.
For myself, it's just increasingly rare that I find books I WANT to invest that much time into. Am I alone in thinking that true literature (define that however you like) is less and less available? Maybe because of the pressures of the marketing system, forcing authors to come out with a book every so-many months. I would never agree to such a requirement, regardless of how tempting it would be.

To be completey honest Siobhan I think in my case it is pure lazyness. I simply can't be bothered to make the effort. This is further enhanced by the fact that after a busy day at work or on a rare night off when I am not rehearsing something I don't want to be intellectually or emotionaly taxed. I just want to log onto a poker site for a couple of hours of relaxation or hang around the forum here. (Mind you this forum has got a little intellectualy taxing for me at times lately ).

When I was unemployed for a long period once and without a TV I read all the time. I think I need to retire so I have both the time and the inclination to do more interesting and rewarding things.

Elfman.

Siobhan · 09-07-06 00:48:08

Ah, this is the life. You know, I should comment for posterity that, in this very moment, I am living the life I once fantasized about. Never thought it would get here.

No, not delivering my speech in Oslo, not ordering flowers for Angelina Jolie, and not running guns from Mozambi*que to J*burg, but simply sitting in my back garden, amongst woodland native plants I've planted, under a majestic, 350 year-old oak tree, an open bottle of Portugese vinho verde by my side, and my beloved English pointer, Audrey, lying on the moss at my feet. I'm wearing my favorite jeans, the ones whose tears at the back of both thighs are so wide that, really it's only the crotch that keeps them on. And I've got my favorite boots on, boots that took a year to find, all the way in Montreal, at a shop that sells couture for waify amazons on one side ($2500 one-of-a-kind-dresses that would only fit you if you weighted 110 pounds and were 5'11'') and estate items from dead cowboys on the other. These boots were made for me, even though the tug-chucks say hecho en Padilla, and name a company that stoped making boots in 1981. They're dead-cowboy boots, and I love them.

Garrison Keillor is on the radio (and now that Prairie Home Companion is a new Altman film, you folks the world over can know about one of the best-known secrets of the States (www.prairiehome.org). Even in the height of summer, the weather has been kind, not too hot, not too wet, and in an hour I have a dinner date with a charming but entirely neurotic filmmaker friend.

It's true that there are a couple of things missing, namely some tow-headed child sitting on my lap, but, hey, the game's not over yet.

I always wanted to be able to just chill and look over an expanse of grass and think nothing-thoughts. Seems like it's been years since life has been this gentle. And those of you who know me know that, really, I have no business feeling relaxed at all, no time to waste, no corners to cut. Fuck it, I'm choosing to anyway. Life is short. My tax dollars are being spent on murdering thousands and destroying cultures; the frenzied lifestyle (gotta do more more more now now now) is a kind of head-in-the-sand obsessive addiction that leads to he deluded thinking that keeps people from rioting in the streets, so if I slow down enough to ponder, maybe I can figure out how to help. Because the six months of my life I spent two years ago on the election did fuck-all, didn't it? The system is rigged.

What does this have to do with books, you ask? Well, now, I'm glad you asked that!

Books are the currency of civilized cultures. If even HALF as many people in my country read literature and voted as watch American Idol (or Big Brother), we'd be in a much tastier pickle.

Ah, books. I'm rather embarrassed to admit that, being a sucker for a pretty face, the two most extraordinary well-written books I've read since leaving university I bought solely for their covers. Great cover art! Remember that when you write your great novel, you, and you.

SO, those two books are the following:

Ava, by Carole Maso and

In the Skin of a Lion by Michael Ondaatje.

The first is an excellent choice for those who like their erotica subtle. This book will draw you in, line by line, until you are writhing in your sheets with no relief in sight. It brings you to that place where all of life, even the air on your skin, is rife with fecundity. It's a book that will fill all of your empty places and make you whole. It's also a wonderful book for those who like to sip on words.
You'll read a line and stop, read a line and stop, close the book and hope that it never ends. It does away with conventional linear narrative (sorry Krono!) and, in its place, has created a kind of prose poetry that never existed before (and hasn't since. Its author, Carole Maso, has not written a similar book.

In the Skin of a Lion is also about subtle eroticism, though it's a much more conventional novel. I've often told people that it has the most erotic two pages of any novel I've read in years -- and that's true IF -- as I said before, you like your eroticism subtle. Oh, how I'd love for some adventurous IFM girls to re-create that scene. Ondaatje's sequel to this book was called The English Patient and was made into a huge movie, but it was In the Skin of a Lion that, to me, was much more cinematic. In a way, I'm glad that it was never made into a film because my own images are the ones that stay with me.

So those are my two offerings to you. I dare someone, some special person, to get the second book and find the two pages that I find the most erotic, ever, and if you do, you'll know more about me and what I like than most people.

Peace. and Happy reading.

The_West_Wind · 09-07-06 00:52:40

For another good trillogy I would recomend to everyone is the "Tales of the Otori" series by Llian Hern.

What makes this different is that in most fantasy novels the world is set in a western based society and style. This series is set in a very Japanese based culture.

Check them out:
-Across the Nightingale Floor
-Grass For His Pillow
-Brilliance of the Moon

blissed · 09-07-06 02:33:32

Elfman wrote:

blissed wrote:
Books have got too many words, they should all be made into films and then the books should be berried deep in the ground where nobody can find them. .
Oh yes. Fahrenheit 451 (Ray Bradbury) That's a good one .
Elfman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451

Have to ever been to Sunderland were videos and Dvds rule and books are for proping up the legs of tables

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Elfman · 09-07-06 02:34:47

Ah Siobhan chere. If all novelists wrote as well as you I'd do a lot more reading.

Elfman.

Elfman · 09-07-06 12:35:11

blissed wrote:

Have to ever been to Sunderland were videos and Dvds rule and books are for proping up the legs of tables .

Apparently in Melbourne they use erotic videos .

Elfman.

bodyhead · 10-07-06 04:03:32

Ah yes Siobhan, let it drop - you may know the Kafka quote -Obviously you can alter it to suit yourself in your garden.

"It is not necessary that you leave the house. Remain at your table and listen. Do not even listen, only wait. Do not even wait, be wholly still and alone. The world will present itself to you for its unmasking, it can do no other, in ecstasy it will writhe at your feet."

footman2 · 12-07-06 01:38:38

What about Non-Fiction. I am a fan of biographies- particularly biographies of contemporary musicians.
Kurt Cobain, Marylin Manson, Anthony Kiedis, Miles Davis etc.
I also enjoyed the bios of Marlon Brando and Lawrence Olivier.

I like reading about how historical events shape the lives of both ordinary and extraordinary people.

kronocide · 12-07-06 01:42:43

Liandra, nice to see another Hawthorne fan. The House of the Seven Gables is one of my favorites.

I haven't even tried to make a list, and I don't think I'll start now. At least not right now.

As to biographies, Ghandi, A Life (Yogesh Chadha) has meant a lot to me.

footman2 · 12-07-06 01:48:53

Fiction

• Testament, Nino Ricci
• Almost anything by Louis de Berniere
• Coming Through Slaughter, Michael Ondaatje

*The large print giveth and the small print taketh away, Tom Waits*

Last edited by footman2 (12-07-06 01:50:13)

cle · 12-07-06 03:37:37

liandra! nice to see another margaret atwood fan..... i havent yet read alias grace, and i cant believe ive been slack in doing so..... ive read cats eye and surfacing, and i have the blind assasin somewhere lost on my bookshelf, and considering how full and dishevelled that is, it's going ot be awhile before I find it

I'm an Anne Tyler fan..... "dinner at the homesick restaurant" used to be a favourite, but I'm still really fond of it!

what sort of genre do people like? and also, are there any classics that you could just read and read forever, no matter how old you get? ie; treaure island, oliver, anne of green gables etc etc i tried to read all of my old enid blyton favourites, but found it a little slow and simple..... however when i re-read treaure island it was just as good

cle · 12-07-06 03:38:57

ooooh, also what are some books that you have started reading and just never finished off? ive still got great expectations and dracula to finish.... i was studying those in high school, and just never quite got to the end

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