Should fantasies be PC?

blissed · 30-03-09 01:16:01

Your not babbling.

Occurrences of child sex I think tend to fall into 3 elements, child as seducer, adult as seducer, and adult as assailant. The last one is a vile crime, the other 2 are much more complicated involving unlawful consent and even sometimes mutual love.

People under 16 are more vulnerable so the law protects them from people who are cynically manipulative, unfortunately if the same people target another adult they get away scot free. Obtaining sex by deception is the hardest kind of rape to prosecute I think.

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ngaio · 30-03-09 01:27:18

I'm going to be honest and admit that while I try to be open minded about people who have child sex fantasies, when it comes to people who actually act it out in any way with a child, I have little to no tolerance... even while admitting that it can be very complicated and different countries and cultures have different views on ages of consent.

blissed wrote:

Obtaining sex by deception is the hardest kind of rape to prosecute I think.

Yeah... certainly entering a grey area there. I'm glad -I- don't actually have to make the laws, I can just sit back on my butt and think about these things at leisure!

neukgraag · 30-03-09 02:01:26

I understand ngaio. Ultimately, I always try to get people to start thinking. I do not ever believe that I own the truth, if there even is one, but only that maybe together we can get closer to the truth.
Having a fantasy is not a crime in itself, or even something to be ashamed of necessarily, or for that matter, that we have much control over that. However, raping a woman without her explicit consent, or photographing explicit child nudity – a child cannot give consent – that is a crime. Therefore, I think it is very unwise to fantasize about it, since that can tempt you to do it. I think it is wiser to suppress those thoughts.
A rape scene can be acted out safely and then – when there is consent - it is ok and therefore it is ok to fantasize about that within that narrow context. Having said that, I am very uncomfortable myself watching videos about (fantasy) rape scenes. It generates anger in me when I see a woman mistreated, even if it is only a video, or a movie.
Last night I watched the movie “A boy in striped pajamas” which is about the Nazi extermination camps. It was just a movie, but nevertheless it provoked very strong emotions in me.
A few weeks ago I watched a theater play based on the memoirs of a boyfriend of young Anne Frank, who himself survived the war and I was crying my heart out. Everybody was looking. I just cannot deal well with things like that, because to me it is so real.
If it is not entirely clear what I am trying to say here, or it seems contradictory, it is because I am not entirely clear in my mind either about the interaction of fantasy and reality. As for me, I am not comfortable with fantasizing about, or watching videos about the raping of either women or children, nor do I have a tendency to have fantasies like that. My fantasies are all about being nice to women.

blissed · 30-03-09 02:01:30

ngaio wrote:

I'm going to be honest and admit that while I try to be open minded about people who have child sex fantasies, when it comes to people who actually act it out in any way with a child, I have little to no tolerance... even while admitting that it can be very complicated and different countries and cultures have different views on ages of consent.
blissed wrote:
Obtaining sex by deception is the hardest kind of rape to prosecute I think.
Yeah... certainly entering a grey area there. I'm glad -I- don't actually have to make the laws, I can just sit back on my butt and think about these things at leisure!

One of my nieghbours use to be a child protection officer and at the time we use to occasionally chat about this as he gave me a lift to college. I think people, including us here tend to talk about what is a complex subject in very simple terms, there's a great deal of difference between assaulting an 8 year old and a 15 year old falling in love with her home piano teacher and the 2 of them getting married a year later.
At least in England the child protection officer is the kind of common sense filter so the legislation doesn't have to be so all encompassing, in fact it can't be. I thought for a while I might like to do it as a job too but he had to face up to some quite nasty people and I'd just run away :)

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gala · 30-03-09 02:16:09

neukgraag wrote:

My fantasies are all about being nice to women.

Yup, you and Bill Callahan.

blissed · 30-03-09 02:18:42

neukgraag wrote:

My fantasies are all about being nice to women.

A few of mine aren't, but they're labeled as BDSM. I would hit someone if they wanted me too but then your serving their needs not your own.
So I don't think you can ever act out domination fantasies, the closest would be to create a fantasy drawn from the experience you'd just had as they were attending to your needs.

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neukgraag · 30-03-09 02:37:40

Interesting you mention BDSM. I have a membership to Hogtied and admit to love watching beautiful women get tied up and then coerced to orgasm till they are incoherent and being tortured with big Hitachi vibrators.
But first I need to listen to the beginning interview to hear them say that they love doing it and I want to hear them say that again in the end interview. Even then, though, I have trouble with the impact scenes.
I have discussed the pain/pleasure side of BDSM with bondage models (that term is ok there) and lifestylers alike and I understand the physiology of how the brain can - under the right circumstances - interpret pain as sexually arousing, but I still have trouble with watching it.
The left side of my brain can handle it, but the right side can not. There is a big conflict in me when I see scenes with impact play.
But I love watching them tied up and so very, very helpless and vulnerable

blissed · 30-03-09 02:54:52

I know what you mean, I very rarely see any BDSM video or any video much :) I usually prefer pictures I can animate in my imagination and then the whole things under my control. I started on ishotmyself.com when it had a hot forum, then when IFM started I just registered free on the forum and quite quickly all the forum action, debate and thus the active mission seemed to move to here, in fact the mission is one of the things I like best about the whole site, so I didn't see any of the videos for ages. When I eventually did I was still suprised by how beautiful they are and how much obvious love, thought and care goes into making them.

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ngaio · 30-03-09 03:16:16

I just have to say that you guys are awesome for talking about this all with me! It's a tricky sort of topic so I really appreciate it.

neukgraag wrote:

I think it is wiser to suppress those thoughts.

I tend to be against thought supression as I've had too many negative experiences with it and generally find it ineffective. I think it's much more healthy to safely explore thoughts... I also don't tend to think that exploring those thoughts temps you to do it. I have rape fantasies but am certainly not tempted to go out and get raped, in fact I am deeply fearful of it... which is probably what adds to the excitement of it as fantasy - my erotic imagination allows me to explore places and do things I would never do in real life, nor want to do!

That being said, obviously my own experience is different to other people's and I am not an expert by any stretch of imagination, nor am I silly enough to imagine that my small personal experiences are proof off anything!

But in case you can't tell, I am a big BDSM fan and have considered a sucscription to hogtied.com in the past... haha! Oh yeah and one of my favourite videos on this site is Erinkyan's.

blissed wrote:

So I don't think you can ever act out domination fantasies, the closest would be to create a fantasy drawn from the experience you'd just had as they were attending to your needs.

I've read a bit of S&M literature talking about how really, it is the sub who is in power. They are the one with the safe word, so they dictate how far things can go. Doms also have a great deal of responsiblity. I find being taking on the sub role (when I'm in that sort of mood) to be incredibly relaxing... it's the dom who has to do all the hard work!

I believe I am digressing.

Last edited by ngaio (30-03-09 03:17:47)

neukgraag · 30-03-09 16:21:55

You are a big BDSM fan, ngaio? Hogtied has generally only one update a week, but it may be over an hour long. The interviews before and after are extremely interesting too, just as the lucubrations here in IFM and so are the forums. Then some weeks there is an additional, shorter update with a young local girl who wants to try out for a shoot. I love those

One scene I like a lot, is when the dom forces a helpless sub to orgasm over and over again. As you know, for most women the clit becomes super sensitive immediately after orgasm. However, since the sub is tied up and helpless, she cannot resist when the dom continues to hold the powerful vibrator against her throbbing clit and forces more orgasms out of her body.

What the girls tell you in the exit interviews is that it hurts a lot for a moment and then they have the most amazing orgasms. They just love it, although they could not do it unless tied down. Sometimes the orgasms are so violent that I start getting concerned that they are going to hurt themselves.

If you are interested, or just curious, you can download just one video on http://www.kinkondemand.com/kod/shoots.jsp They are not cheap, though. As an alternative, you can pay per minute also. Then you can always decide if you want to join the site or not.

blissed · 30-03-09 16:57:03

neukgraag I've seen the site you mentioned but in the trailers they're very much into the doing but for me not much into aesthetics, so the people look to me less appealing in a session than they do before it. If you look at pics of Japanese rope bondage the people there can look vulnerable and really beautiful, those 2 elements together I think can be very arousing, tho I suppose some of that is the control you have when you imagine what might happen in a picture as opposed to the lack of control you have when you see something enacted.

ngaio unlike you I've never engaged in S&M so I am talking out of my ass a little bit Lol

but anyway I just happened on this today http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 … ether.html

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neukgraag · 31-03-09 00:37:38

Interesting article and I agree with you on the aesthetics comment regarding HT. I have argued about that a few times there on the forum. I see nothing wrong with the subs looking atractive during a bondage scene. The lighting and the sets leave something to be desired as well.

ngaio · 31-03-09 06:25:09

neukraag, you've got me interested in the site again. Looks like I'll have to look into a subscription next time I have a little spare cash floating around (I kind of sort of just splashed out on a trip to Sydney over the Easter break...heh heh heh!) Will check out that link with the download when I get home. Thanks!

Blissed, interesting article! I'm going to have to send that one on to a couple of friends of mine!

gala · 31-03-09 06:28:30

Maybe some thought about the elements and characteristics of fantasy might provide some further space for dissection of the various fantasies under discussion here. When I talk to people about fantasy (and I do this most days of the week with strangers, friends, and lovers), there are some basic mechanics to consider. Some folks find themselves in complete control of their sexual fantasies and can write them as they are having them, control their chronologies and outcomes, and decide where they begin and end. Others find that fantasy is more like something that happens to them - it's just a stream-of-consciousness flow of ideas and pictures and sounds and words and sensations that just happens, and there is no conscious control of them. Personally I find a lot of parallels between fantasy and dreaming - there's lucid dreaming where one can more or less control the course of the dream or act as a character in it, and there's the mish-mash surrealist art installation of dreaming which most of us experience but don't always remember.

So for those of you up for discussing the morality or political correctness of various types of fantasy, maybe the psychology of those fantasies themselves (which I distinguish from the behaviours which stem from them) and the mechanics of having them deserves some attention. I personally agree with Adele - the bedroom is no place for political correctness - but I suppose my patience for things that go beyond simple political incorrectness and dip into the territory of oppression can be questionable. But I tend to evaluate all of those things on a case-by-case basis, because experience has shown me that the same fantasy never means exactly the same thing twice. Freud may disagree, but I try not to let that bother me.

nihpuad · 31-03-09 08:03:44

ngaio, you're definitely not babbling.

The question of the distinction between fantasy and acting out -- esp. WRT children -- came up in another forum I read, as an OT tangent to a thread not otherwise related to sex. I've been thinking about that conversation ever since I first saw this topic appear in the index. I had been reluctant to mention that conversation here, for fear of getting you folks in trouble with the PC police, but since the subject's already been broached...

ngaio wrote:

When you say "these are vile crimes" do you mean you consider even -fantasising- about such things to be a vile crime? I can't say it's a fantasy I personally have (I fantasize about people much older than myself, if anything!) but I just am apprehensive about the idea that people who have these certain fantasies are only a step away from becoming paedophiles. Is there actual proof of this?

I don't know about actual research on that last question, but I know that I personally fantasize about things (and enjoy erotic art regarding things) that I have never done, and probably will never do, and likely wouldn't even want to do in real life. As it happens, none of my kinks are for things that would be inherently illegal or immoral if I did act them out (I don't fantasize about older people as you do, but like you, I'm definitely not into children)... but nevertheless, I'm very clear about the distinction between what turns me on in theory and what I want to do in practice. And you seem to have that distinction down as well...

ngaio wrote:

As a feminist and someone who has several good friends who have been raped, I used to be incredibly ashamed of my own private rape fantasies. Until I realised I don't actually WANT to be raped, I can tell the difference between reality and fantasy (and so can my partner).

Of course, there's really no practical way for a pedophile (sorry for my Yankee spelling!) to role-play their fantasy the way you and your partner can role-play yours, and there's the difficulty. Child pornography isn't illegal because it's those feelings are any "nastier" than any other fetish; it's only illegal because nobody can make it without abusing children (at least not if we're talking about photo/video). And I suspect it's difficult for anyone to sustain a fantasy life without at least pictures to look at, so I guess the distinction I'm drawing is largely academic. Still, it's always seemed to me that what's going on inside your head is nobody else's damn business, as long as it stays inside your head. I have this wonderful album of live folksongs that includes one by John Forster called "Feel Your Feelings," a bitterly funny bit about a guy dealing with his post-breakup emotions in which he sings "They can't lock you up for what you're feelin'/So feel your feelings all the way!"... and that's always been my watchword.

gala wrote:

I personally agree with Adele - the bedroom is no place for political correctness - but I suppose my patience for things that go beyond simple political incorrectness and dip into the territory of oppression can be questionable. But I tend to evaluate all of those things on a case-by-case basis, because experience has shown me that the same fantasy never means exactly the same thing twice. Freud may disagree, but I try not to let that bother me.

I confess I'm not 100% sure I'm following you... but I'm pretty sure I agree!

neukgraag · 31-03-09 17:22:19

ngaio wrote:

neukraag, you've got me interested in the site again. Looks like I'll have to look into a subscription next time I have a little spare cash floating around

ngaio, talk to Richard. This should be a legitimate business expense for you, for crying out loud. The company should reimburse you for that.

Another site that may give you some ideas is First - time - videos out of Phoenix, Arizona. It also shows real, every day girls masturbate and have real orgasms, not unlike here on IFM, but then they show a lot more video of her fooling around. One video, I remember, was over an hour and a half before she finally reached orgasm! And...I loved every minute of it. I really did.

blissed · 31-03-09 20:40:21

I don't rate that as highly as the kink site, plus they don't have a forum where you can recommend other peoples sites :)

It's a total performance site and there's nothing wrong with performance, but unlike a belly dance it's more explicit yet it seems more removed from real sex, which kind of diminishes the viewer and makes you feel like a loser. Well it does me anyway.

When people do things in a way they wouldn't unless they were paid, I kind of ask myself what would they do with someone they feel attracted to or just as they pleased or let that influence a credible performance, and to me thats worth a great deal more, and is more arousing too.

The people on the site I think are really beautiful tho and might enjoy what their doing, but I think their real potential is wasted or even spoiled. A bit like a good songwriter playing the same covers of other peoples songs every night, or someone serving you in a shop who has a genuinely nice personality but says (because they have to) is there anything else I can help you with, have a nice day, missing you already :)

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gala · 01-04-09 00:11:37

nihpuad wrote:

I confess I'm not 100% sure I'm following you... but I'm pretty sure I agree!

If you could be more specific about what isn't clear perhaps I can help clarify.

adele_w · 01-04-09 00:48:56

Dear Gala, can you please clarify this bit for me:

gala wrote:

but I suppose my patience for things that go beyond simple political incorrectness and dip into the territory of oppression can be questionable.

Thank you in anticipation.
Yours sincerely from across the desk, Adele.

gala · 01-04-09 02:58:18

While I'd like to make you wait (anticipation is my favourite), I would never want to be misunderstood on the IFM Forum, so of course I can clarify that for you now. An example of something that would extend beyond political incorrectness and reach into the territory of oppression is racial fetishisation, which is something I don't really find to be morally or politically ok. I won't make a blanket statement and say that I can never validate a fantasy that involves race, but I haven't seen many occasions where they haven't been directly reproducing current systems of oppression in a very blatant way. So, while I do find that PC + bedroom = boredom, I don't necessarily think it's a place where anything and everything goes. I'd like it to be that way someday, and I'll do my bit to contribute to that, but I think the collective sexual psyche is not really in a place where that can be the case.

I was hoping to prompt some discussion about whether or not the way someone fantasises changes our judgments of their fantasies, but I think no one's catching that bait.

neukgraag · 01-04-09 16:20:27

That is exactly what I am afraid of. What about all the violence that is shown on kid cartoon tv? Many experts consider that an issue. It hardens us. What made young German boys into cold blooded killers during WWII? For one thing, they had to strangle a puppy that they had befriended for several weeks during their basic training. Troubling questions.
On Device Bondage, another Kink site, the lighting is purposely designed to make it look like a crime scene and I have voiced my strong objections against that – to no avail, so I quit, because I do not want to be associated with that. They also have done some raw test shoots about abductions and rape and likewise I have raised my concerns about that. What it comes down to is that I personally have a very low tolerance for violence against women.
On the other hand, ngaio seems to be perfectly able to separate fantasy from reality – and so can my wife. Maybe women are just better at that? So, I believe that she is ok to have rape fantasies. But as for me, I do not want to take the slightest risk. It is something we all have to decide for ourselves. I have.

ngaio · 03-04-09 01:35:07

Gala, I love your brain. The contributions you make to this forum are always so wonderful to read. Do you have a blog or anything?

gala wrote:

Maybe some thought about the elements and characteristics of fantasy might provide some further space for dissection of the various fantasies under discussion here. When I talk to people about fantasy (and I do this most days of the week with strangers, friends, and lovers), there are some basic mechanics to consider. Some folks find themselves in complete control of their sexual fantasies and can write them as they are having them, control their chronologies and outcomes, and decide where they begin and end. Others find that fantasy is more like something that happens to them - it's just a stream-of-consciousness flow of ideas and pictures and sounds and words and sensations that just happens, and there is no conscious control of them. Personally I find a lot of parallels between fantasy and dreaming - there's lucid dreaming where one can more or less control the course of the dream or act as a character in it, and there's the mish-mash surrealist art installation of dreaming which most of us experience but don't always remember.

I'd say my form of fantasy slips between the surrealist mish mash and the more lucid.

Some of the most fantastic sessions I've had by myself have been at 4am, all by myself, when I'm practically asleep and slip into these incredible, demented fantasies where I do things I'd not even usually THINK of doing.

Ultimately, though, when I am in more control over my fantasies, I still am unable to CHOOSE what to be turned on by. Just like a homosexual man is (and I know this is a sweeping statement, sexuality can be fluid, etc etc) unable to choose to be attracted to women. I had fantasies that involved forced sexual acts since before I was old enough to understand what it was all about. (There was the one with the old witch women who kept stripping me naked and pinching my bottom! I used to think about that one all the time and rub myself against things. I was about 6, I believe.)

So yeah, looking at fantasy a bit like dreaming - who hasn't dreamed of doing something incredibly messed up? Do you wake up thinking "I need help" or do you wake up thinking "It was just a dream so I don't need to control it".

gala wrote:

But I tend to evaluate all of those things on a case-by-case basis, because experience has shown me that the same fantasy never means exactly the same thing twice. Freud may disagree, but I try not to let that bother me.

Freud can suck my cock envy. I agree with you and wish I could be as eloquent! Whenever I start to type out my thoughts, I tend to forget what they were!

ngaio · 03-04-09 01:44:41

neukgraag wrote:

That is exactly what I am afraid of. What about all the violence that is shown on kid cartoon tv? Many experts consider that an issue. It hardens us.

That IS popular opinion and a lot of Experts (with a capital 'E') love spouting this common wisdom on Oprah but there are lot of others who are skeptical and have done studies that have found quite the opposite.

For example, violent video games. Though there are obviously one or two poor messed up kids being influenced, apparentally, by videos games (think the Columbine shootings) there are studies which have found that with the rise of violent videos games, youth violence has not gone up...in fact quite the opposite seems to happen. Perhaps these violent shows and video games have a releasing effect. Or maybe they just keep the kids at home.

I've read a couple of good books and articles on the topic but for some reason the names escape me. Will have to find old essays from the days when I was trying to be educated!

neukgraag wrote:

On the other hand, ngaio seems to be perfectly able to separate fantasy from reality – and so can my wife. Maybe women are just better at that? So, I believe that she is ok to have rape fantasies. But as for me, I do not want to take the slightest risk. It is something we all have to decide for ourselves. I have.

It seems to me that the main this is that you've decided what works for you and as long as we're all careful to recognise people have different needs and limits and to respect that as long as they don't hurt anyone (unless asked nicely to do so)... then life will be all happy rainbows and sparkles!

ngaio · 03-04-09 01:56:11

gala wrote:

I was hoping to prompt some discussion about whether or not the way someone fantasises changes our judgments of their fantasies, but I think no one's catching that bait.

When you say "the way someone fantasisies" do you mean, for example, the way they use those fantasies? Or deal to them?

For example... the racial fetishism thing. I have a similar feeling of discomfort towards it... Yet I am incredibly attracted to Japanese girls. That said, I cannot stand the way they are fetishized for their smallness and apparent "submissiveness"... so while I might fantasize about girls with Japanese features... I don't actively seek out "Japense porn" and try to avoid any sort of exoticising of them. The attraction stems back from a highschool crush to one girl who drew pretty pictures for me... so I try to concentrate on her instead of "a group of giggling Japanese schoolgirls" or whatever.

Hmmm, not sure what I'm trying to say here. Help!

ngaio · 03-04-09 02:16:06

nihpuad wrote:

Of course, there's really no practical way for a pedophile (sorry for my Yankee spelling!) to role-play their fantasy the way you and your partner can role-play yours, and there's the difficulty. Child pornography isn't illegal because it's those feelings are any "nastier" than any other fetish; it's only illegal because nobody can make it without abusing children (at least not if we're talking about photo/video). And I suspect it's difficult for anyone to sustain a fantasy life without at least pictures to look at, so I guess the distinction I'm drawing is largely academic.

Well I talked to a women once who had a partner who fantasised about very young girls... so this women dressed up like a very young girl and played that role. Obviously it wasn't very convincing but they were both happy simply playing it out. So maybe it is enough for some people?

There is also a lot of drawn and written "underage" stuff which is quite easily to access and I don't personally think should be illegal (going back to the Simpsons porn thing). Perhaps this would be enough to sustain some people's fantasies? Obviously I don't know the answer to that.

Ok I have ranted far too much and can see myself going in circles! I apologise to everyone here!

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