Happy Independence Day

The_Elfman · 04-07-07 10:16:42

May I wish all of our American members:

blissed · 04-07-07 15:58:36

Be nice to have a few Americans, we've only got people from Canada apparently :)

Happy 4th of July.

Only 18 months to go :)

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gala · 04-07-07 17:13:17

I accept these well-wishes on behalf of all Americans. We hope you like our cultural exports, and we are very, very sorry for the way we generally behave and for our wide use of explosives.

Go amarrakkka.

kurvenal · 04-07-07 17:22:24

Thanks for the thoughtful wish on our Independence Day, Elfman.

It seems not too many people in this world like us nowadays. But I believe our ship of state will right itself before it founders. Our voters have had more than enough of war. Many of us including me didn't want it in the first place. As a US citizen I am a social liberal. My politics are Progressive Democrat. Many more US voters are leaning in that direction now. I'm counting on a substantial improvement in our relationship with the world after 2008.

And then there's always the most important question, IMHO: How do we prevent obsessive greed for wealth, power and prestige from destroying life our little planet?

Best to all.

k

The_Elfman · 04-07-07 18:37:50

kurvenal wrote:

Thanks for the thoughtful wish on our Independence Day, Elfman.
It seems not too many people in this world like us nowadays. But I believe our ship of state will right itself before it founders. Our voters have had more than enough of war. Many of us including me didn't want it in the first place. As a US citizen I am a social liberal. My politics are Progressive Democrat. Many more US voters are leaning in that direction now. I'm counting on a substantial improvement in our relationship with the world after 2008.
And then there's always the most important question, IMHO: How do we prevent obsessive greed for wealth, power and prestige from destroying life our little planet?

An extract from The American Deceleration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security".

Makes you think. Doesn't it?

aven frey · 05-07-07 02:15:17

Happy I day!!

Dachande · 05-07-07 04:59:52

Ah, just before the day ends, I'll jump in and say kudos to all my American friends to the South! While we Canadians can be a bit snippy, you know we love you!

Last edited by Dachande (30-07-07 13:18:53)

nihpuad · 05-07-07 06:57:05

The_Elfman wrote:

An extract from The American Deceleration of Independence:
".... But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security".
Makes you think. Doesn't it?

Careful, Elfman! That's sounds like Evildoer talk, and I'd hate for you to give W an excuse to invade your peaceful neck of the woods.

Thanks for all the I-day well wishes, and let me pass along the same to my fellow Americans here (including ex-pat porn editors!). I honored the day by marching in a parade with my (Democratic) congressman, and then repeating the same parade route (it was a long parade, and the group I was with was up front, so I was able to walk back and join another group) in support of universal healthcare. Then tonight my wife and I went to see Michael Moore's Sicko, about how badly this country needs universal healthcare (and how fortunate almost every other developed country is to have it).

Tomorrow I'm going to go find my own "neck of the woods": I'm going for a 4-day hike on the Appalachian Trail in western Connecticut. If y'all never hear from me again, it probably means I was eaten by a bear!

jwhite · 06-07-07 03:08:55

I believe that the USA is the worst country in the world, except for all the others. (Apologies to, I think, Will Rogers.) To be an American should mean that we are held to the standard of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution; indeed, our finest moments come when these motivate our actions. There are those, unfortunately, whose realpolitik subverts our best moments, and some actively evil (Cheney, Rumsfield) corrupted by power. I hope you in the world can tell the difference between our best impulses, often expressed here, and the momentary insanity we occasionally indulge in. We get credit and blame for both; that is the nature of representative democracy. I hope that everyone will someday live with the freedoms we claim, including us.

kirejos · 06-07-07 14:19:05

Thanks Elfman,

I love 4th of July fireworks. Mostly for their stunning apolitical beauty. If you're ever in Boston for the 4th it's a must. It'll really "blow your mind". Right on the Charles River, with the Boston Pops. I've never seen anything like it, they really go over the top. It's like the most intense visual orgasm you can imagine, a real feast for the senses. Bostonians are a fun bunch too.

kurvenal wrote:

Thanks for the thoughtful wish on our Independence Day, Elfman.
It seems not too many people in this world like us nowadays. But I believe our ship of state will right itself before it founders. Our voters have had more than enough of war. Many of us including me didn't want it in the first place. As a US citizen I am a social liberal. My politics are Progressive Democrat. Many more US voters are leaning in that direction now. I'm counting on a substantial improvement in our relationship with the world after 2008.
And then there's always the most important question, IMHO: How do we prevent obsessive greed for wealth, power and prestige from destroying life our little planet?
Best to all.
k

Ditto.

BuzWeaver · 16-07-07 01:27:57

I suppose its only fair that someone on the other side of the fence chimes in. There shouldn't be any confusion on how we enforce not only our government, but our constitution. Its not a mystery that a majority of Democrats voted for the war. The war in and of itself could have easily been avoided had other nations backed the policies crated by the UN. Sadly those nations had investments and interest in Iraq and didn't want to lose on their investments, mainly Germany, Russian and France.

The war is an issue, but its also a statement. I understand how other nations in the world are vexed by the decisions that were made, however don't kid yourself into thinking that if those nations had the same ability that they too would have acted in their own interest.

nihpuad · 16-07-07 05:47:03

BuzWeaver wrote:

I understand how other nations in the world are vexed by the decisions that were made, however don't kid yourself into thinking that if those nations had the same ability that they too would have acted in their own interest.

Nobody doubts that nations act in their own interests... but it strikes me as virtually impossible to argue, knowing what we know now, that invading Iraq was ever in the best interests of the U.S., with or without support from other nations.

Further, a nation's interests don't exist in a vacuum: Even if the Iraq war had somehow been in our interest in some narrowly defined, short-term sense, it has damaged our relations with the rest of the world profoundly, in ways that will take (IMHO) decades to repair, if they can be repaired at all. We should ask our children and grandchildren (and those of our once-and-future friends around the world), some day, whether they think this war was "in their interest."

Finally, as to Democrats in Congress voting "for the war," two points: First, they did not "vote for war"; they voted to authorize the use of force as a last resort, as part of a negotiating process that, we later learned, the administration never honestly intended to pursue. And second, the "threat" that brought the use-of-force resolution before the Congress, and which motivated the votes of many Democrats and Republicans alike, was based, we now know, on deliberate falsehoods and manipulations on the part of the administration.

I'm no pacifist. I believe sovereign nations have the right and duty to protect their interests, and that sometimes that makes war necessary... but this war was never necessary, nor was it prudent. It was always the product of a radical ideology, and of the idiosyncratic agenda of Bush and his closest associates.

PS to jwhite: While it's possible Will Rogers paraphrased as you report, the original version of the quote was "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."... and it was Churchill who said it.

kirejos · 16-07-07 11:31:45

BuzWeaver wrote:

The war is an issue, but its also a statement. I understand how other nations in the world are vexed by the decisions that were made, however don't kid yourself into thinking that if those nations had the same ability that they too would have acted in their own interest.

What's the statement?

Look at how many of our young Americans we are willing to sacrifice in a bloody, ruinous, and pointless war?

Is that supposed to be impressive?

And is it "in our own interest" to waste all of our resources in Iraq, radicalizing generations of future jihadists, while those responsible for 9/11 hang out in Pakistan?

Are you sure that's what other nations would do?

Would they perpetuate a foreign policy that only makes "the enemy" stronger?

Would they squander whatever political credibility they had in the region on a quagmire, while a dangerous theocracy next door slowly develops nuclear weapons?

Is that really what other nations would do?

Haven't you been paying attention to what's been going on??

BuzWeaver wrote:

The war in and of itself could have easily been avoided had other nations backed the policies created by the UN. Sadly those nations had investments and interest in Iraq and didn't want to lose on their investments, mainly Germany, Russian, and France.

???? Hans Blix (and all of the other UN weapons inspectors), never found evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and said so. Your argument is typical of the kind of excuses/denial we've been getting from the Bush administration for years.

The real tragedy is that people are dying every day (Iraqis & Americans) because Bush & Cheney are too proud to say that they made a mistake. How many lives have to be wasted, just to feed their massive egos??

Last edited by kirejos (16-07-07 22:04:46)

gala · 16-07-07 13:51:31

Has anyone ever seen the Chappelle's Show with Black Bush and the Iraq war? And they find out that Saddam and his regime went to Africa ('cradle of fucken civilization!') and bought some yellow cake? Don't drop that shit! Definitely one of the best episodes ever. And excellent commentary on 'the war'.

BuzWeaver · 17-07-07 02:25:10

nihpuad

It was in the interest of the US, Saddam posed a threat, a very real threat as we saw he actually invaded another nation. Saddam’s potential was real and had been demonstrated. Our relationship with the world varies, look at the excitement that was generated when the Democrats took the House and Senate; suddenly these countries had a sense of optimism and relief.

Unless you consider the Democrats naïve, they very much new that force was going to be used, despite the semantics they did approve the use of force, which indecently lead to the war. It would appear we disagree over the particulars surrounding the war, however there is a war and we are in it.

I have no problems with people voicing their opinions or exercising their rights, however let’s remember the morale of the troops plays a big factor and suggesting that they are either in a hopeless cause or their efforts are meaningless is incredibly detrimental.

Last edited by BuzWeaver (17-07-07 02:26:51)

BuzWeaver · 17-07-07 02:39:21

kirejos wrote:

BuzWeaver wrote:
The war is an issue, but its also a statement. I understand how other nations in the world are vexed by the decisions that were made, however don't kid yourself into thinking that if those nations had the same ability that they too would have acted in their own interest.
What's the statement?
Look at how many of our young Americans we are willing to sacrifice in a bloody, ruinous, and pointless war?
Is that supposed to be impressive?
And is it "in our own interest" to waste all of our resources in Iraq, radicalizing generations of future jihadists, while those responsible for 9/11 hang out in Pakistan?
Are you sure that's what other nations would do?
Would they perpetuate a foreign policy that only makes "the enemy" stronger?
Would they squander whatever political credibility they had in the region on a quagmire, while a dangerous theocracy next door slowly develops nuclear weapons?
Is that really what other nations would do?
Haven't you been paying attention to what's been going on??
BuzWeaver wrote:
The war in and of itself could have easily been avoided had other nations backed the policies created by the UN. Sadly those nations had investments and interest in Iraq and didn't want to lose on their investments, mainly Germany, Russian, and France.
???? Hans Blix (and all of the other UN weapons inspectors), never found evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and said so. Your argument is typical of the kind of excuses/denial we've been getting from the Bush administration for years.
The real tragedy is that people are dying every day (Iraqis & Americans) because Bush & Cheney are too proud to say that they made a mistake. How many lives have to be wasted, just to feed their massive egos??

I see young Americans willing to serve their country, not sheep being sent to the slaughter. I spent 8 years serving my country. Every person who goes into the Military knows what he or she is getting into.

Each branch of Government has its own fonding, the resources are there. I can understand your misconception as you are probably getting your information from the media as well as borrowing their language (based upon what you are saying and advocating).

Perhaps you should take your own advice about paying attention to what is going on and perhaps consider better sources of information or at least be objective about it.

Cate · 17-07-07 03:14:50

BuzWeaver wrote:

n
I have no problems with people voicing their opinions or exercising their rights, however let’s remember the morale of the troops plays a big factor and suggesting that they are either in a hopeless cause or their efforts are meaningless is incredibly detrimental.

So they should be kept fighting for fear of weakening their morale?

kirejos · 17-07-07 05:05:00

BuzWeaver wrote:

I have no problems with people voicing their opinions or exercising their rights, however let’s remember the morale of the troops plays a big factor and suggesting that they are either in a hopeless cause or their efforts are meaningless is incredibly detrimental.

What would be better for troop morale? The prospects of a third or fourth tour of duty? Or bringing them home?

Look at the levels of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in Iraq War veterans, it's apalling. Most of them would tell you that they're being asked to police a civil war. Lets respect them enough, not to continue blowing smoke up their ass about the situation over there.

I think the troops are smart enough to realize that a large majority of Americans whole-heartedly support them, without supporting the war. To say that they're not capable of making that distinction insults their intelligence.

BuzWeaver wrote:

I can understand your misconception as you are probably getting your information from the media as well as borrowing their language (based upon what you are saying and advocating).
Perhaps you should take your own advice about paying attention to what is going on and perhaps consider better sources of information or at least be objective about it.

Gimme a break, it's the media's fault?? You can't be serious.

The Bush administation itself doesn't dispute the fact that terrorists have become emboldened, that Iran poses a serious threat, that the situation in the Middle East has deteriorated, and that Pakistan has become a safe-haven. These are all recognized facts.

The problem the Bush administration, and conservatives in general are having these days, is that Americans are finally fed up with all of the bullshit they've been spoon-fed for the past 13 years.

What would you consider a more objective source for information? Conservative talk-radio? Or Fox News? Or right-wing bloggers? Please.

Last edited by kirejos (17-07-07 13:22:28)

nihpuad · 17-07-07 06:24:44

BuzWeaver wrote:

It was in the interest of the US, Saddam posed a threat, a very real threat as we saw he actually invaded another nation.

Aren't you confusing your Gulf Wars? Saddam invaded Kuwait in 1990 and I absolutely supported our action in liberating Kuwait. We would have had a much more defensible case for overthrowing Saddam at that time (though I suspect we would have screwed up the postwar occupation just as badly then as now); in the 12 years between the two invasions, Saddam's military capability became a shell of its former self (not that its former self was any great shakes, as Desert Storm proved), and nobody could find -- before, during, or after the invasion -- any evidence that he posed any sort of strategic threat (nuclear, chemical, or otherwise) to the world at large. We didn't invade because we had to; we invaded because Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al., wanted to.

BuzWeaver wrote:

Our relationship with the world varies, look at the excitement that was generated when the Democrats took the House and Senate; suddenly these countries had a sense of optimism and relief.

Well, on this point, I hope you're right and I'm wrong... but I doubt it. Frankly I think our allies (if we can still call them that) are probably savvy to the fact that Congress can't really do much to change the foreign policy of a determined and antagonistic administration, so I don't think they'll really have any sense of relief 'til we have a new president. Even then, I doubt we'll be capable of putting together international efforts in places like Darfur, or of returning to our historical role as an "honest broker" in the Middle East because, really, at this point why should any other nation trust us?

BuzWeaver wrote:

Unless you consider the Democrats naïve, they very much new that force was going to be used, despite the semantics they did approve the use of force, which indecently lead to the war.

I suppose it's always possible to view the victims of a fraud "naïve," but I'm not sure it's useful. We know, from subsequent insider testimony, that the administration came into office with a preconceived intention to invade Iraq, and that it lied about and manipulated the intelligence data it presented to justify the "threat" (even included the use of forged documents). Further, the predicate for the use-of-force authorization really was the administration's promise to exhaust all diplomatic means (i.e., the UN) before proceeding with force... a promise it's clear they never had any intention of honoring.

I know in hindsight the war seems to have been inevitable, but it didn't look that way at the time. Historically the rule has been that "politics stops at the water's edge," and Congress has generally been able to trust the White House to act in good faith WRT matters of foreign policy. I'm quite sure members of Congress who voted for the resolution were genuinely shocked to see how Bush proceeded. I recall listening to the live feed of Colin Powell's UN speech and thinking "oh my God, they're actually going to do this!?!?" I'm quite certain I wasn't the only one whose jaw was slack with disbelief. It's easy to write that off, after the fact, as naïvety, but I think the blame properly falls on the people who lied about their intentions.

BuzWeaver wrote:

I have no problems with people voicing their opinions or exercising their rights, however let’s remember the morale of the troops plays a big factor and suggesting that they are either in a hopeless cause or their efforts are meaningless is incredibly detrimental.

Surely you don't think being stop-lossed or being constantly rotated back into combat without the statutory minimum time at home is good for morale? Based on the public statements of those troops (and leaders and generals) who've left the service and are free to talk, it's clear that the troops already know how hopeless their mission is. I fail to see how acknowledging their sacrifice and committing ourselves to ending it conveys anything but the deepest respect. They have performed gallantly, but they have been ill-used by the leaders who sent them. The very least we the people owe them is to try to rescue them from this folly.

Last edited by nihpuad (17-07-07 06:25:46)

blissed · 17-07-07 16:03:03

I heard Bush has no false teeth, is that true?

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#1 04-07-07 10:16:42

Happy Independence Day

#2 04-07-07 15:58:36

Re: Happy Independence Day

#3 04-07-07 17:13:17

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#4 04-07-07 17:22:24

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#5 04-07-07 18:37:50

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#6 05-07-07 02:15:17

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#7 05-07-07 04:59:52

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#9 06-07-07 03:08:55

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#10 06-07-07 14:19:05

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#11 16-07-07 01:27:57

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#12 16-07-07 05:47:03

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#13 16-07-07 11:31:45

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#14 16-07-07 13:51:31

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#15 17-07-07 02:25:10

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#16 17-07-07 02:39:21

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#17 17-07-07 03:14:50

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#18 17-07-07 05:05:00

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#19 17-07-07 06:24:44

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