Gender: The Thread

Khanada Faye · 27-04-07 05:49:24

I promised Gala that I would begin a thread devoted to the discussion of gender, whatever form it may take. I also believe that this is a topic on many of our minds, especially in light of the very intriguing, thought-provoking, and challenging musings of Bridgett, who has so generously given us the privilege to listen to hir speak.

The issue of "gender" and all its subtleties is one that I've thought about and struggled with since reaching puberty and developing a more complex relationship with my own body. I've always identified very strongly as a woman. I love my breasts and my pussy; I love the fact that my body is soft and pillowy in places--I feel earthy and good, and I do feel whole in this body. But I would never describe, nor have I ever described, myself as feminine. I'm a big girl--I'm 5'8", with broad shoulders and a broad back, I have thighs, I have large hands and long fingers, I am Rubenesque (I have always enjoyed that term!) but I have never felt as "ladylike" as that term, to me, implies. I have PCOS (polycystic ovarian syndrome) as well as an insufficient amount of androgen blockers, so these two things combined certainly manifest themselves in my physical appearance. I'm not androgynous--you'd never mistake me for a man walking down the street--but I'm more hirsute than the typical woman, and my carriage is far more what one would classify as masculine than anything feminine. It causes me to constantly struggle with my weight. Also, you could say that my personality is rather affected by the excess active androgen in my body, if you subscribe to the notion that these things can be controlled hormonally--at one point in hir discussion, Bridgett says something to the extent of, "T makes you angry." I'm loud and argumentative, certainly more "bullish" than "catty" (to reference a discussion from another thread), I can be hotheaded and my voice carries without me--it is a great effort for me to speak softly, as if I'm stifling my own breath. These are all characteristics that we associate with men. I often feel as if I'm in a constant battle with my body. But I always question this struggle--why do I have such negative feelings toward my own body, which I sometimes love to love and sometimes can't even bring myself to look at in a full-length mirror? I of course know the answer to this, and it of course lies in the rather rigid societal constructs of gender that we're all raised with. It sounds very Women's Studies 101, but it's true .

It has been hammered into me by all sorts of means that I shouldn't like my body as it is, that the general populace certainly doesn't like it because they don't want to look at it in television shows, films, magazines, advertisements (unless, of course, it's the "before" picture of a NutriSystem commercial). Of course, my amazonian build is compounded by the fact that I don't act like a lady, so I am doubly guilty of corrupting my biological sex with contradictory behavior. And I get so angry at myself for feeling this way--I don't deserve to have such negative feelings directed toward me from me (the world does it enough as it is!). But it's incredibly difficult to break through the programming and realize that there isn't a "wrong" when it comes to gender and gender expression.

One of the things I enjoyed about Bridgett's piece is that ze showed us (Bridgett, I am adopting the pronouns used on your website--please let me know if you prefer otherwise) how gender can express itself in a multitude of ways through a single body--ze celebrates this fact but also expresses how ze can bring hir body to a more natural depiction of what ze feels and responds to internally, so that ze will become, in hir words, "a hot guy with a twat." This, of course, blows the gender binary out of the water and forces us to confront the fact that gender cannot be pinned down or defined as a single thing for, really, anyone--no matter how much we want to. The "ideal" extremes are so fleeting, so shifting, that they don't truly exist--yet it is our insistence upon adhering to these extremes that causes problems, that causes someone like me, who has a soft, voluptuous, powerful, body, not to appreciate it.

So, I've written this little 'gender autobiography' to invite everyone here into a discussion of gender and anything surrounding it, in any way you'd like to address it, as personally or analytically as you'd like. Hopefully this will get off the ground--I think it's both important to discuss and relevant to what is being done here at IFM. Think about it: even something as simple as the fact of Asha's unshaved armpits is nudging the gender envelope. We owe it to ourselves to open it and see what we can do with what's inside.

padraic · 27-04-07 08:08:57

Khanada Faye, thank you very much for your honesty, which I'm sure took considerable courage. As far as gender goes, I myself have far more questions than answers. What role do our chromosomes and genes play in gender? It can't be that we're just defined by XX and XY, but these can't be completely irrelevant either---or can they? If the brains of men and women are really 'different', how is it that some women and men have been deeply sure all of their lives that they were born into a body that doesn't reflect their own self-concept?

Hormones and body image are just as problematic. My wife was a swimmer and basketball player in high school. She has broader shoulders than most women because of her sporting background, but that doesn't make her in the least bit masculine. Nevertheless, she always dated men larger than herself because she didn't want to feel bulky and 'unfeminine'. Recent studies have shown that high school boys have plentiful body anxieties of their own. How many boys really look like the hypertrophied rugby players and athletes who are supposed to be the way a 'real man' looks? Most boys feel like weak failures by comparison to the ultra-capable media action heroes who can master every challenge, never lose a fight, and are never afraid. When I was 13 or 14, I was bullied by a hateful student four forms ahead of me, much larger than I was and 4 or 5 years older. I knew he was an a***hole, of course. But I also actually blamed myself becaue I couldn't find a way to stop him the way I thought all 'men' should be able to do.

Just as few men are built like buff action stars, few women are built like so-called supermodels. Why isn't the natural beauty of all types of people more celebrated? We know that some of our notions of beauty come from marketers, from advertising agencies, from racism also. What are some of their other origins?

I look forward to the discussions that will ensue here. By the way, KF, my wife is in some ways built very much like you, and she's great to look at. I *like* women with thighs and curves---and I'm not alone, I assure you. :)

Desertgirl44 · 27-04-07 09:19:54

Thank you KF for opening this discussion. I watched Bridgett's interviews with absolute awe and admiration for this truly beautiful person, so open, so honest and so clearly articulate about her own struggles with gender identity. She raised questions that have made me think. What is it about me, a woman, that makes me identify as a woman so easily? Questioning yourself about how you feel and identify yourself are so obviously raised for those people contemplating gender reassignment. But for the rest of us we barely look at the question. And I'm finding it an interesting exercise. I'll post more on this later when I've finished my reflection. In the meantime, thank you to KF and to Padraic for your posts.

The_Elfman · 27-04-07 12:12:30

Thanks for starting this thread Faye and for your candor. To be honest my gender is not something I think about much these days. I have virtually no libido and haven't been sexually active for over a decade so that doesn't come into the equation. I don't really think of myself as male. I'm me. I've never really felt comfortable being defined by anything and that includes my gender. I'm individual and unique. I don't like it when people try to pigeon hole or limit me with stereotypes.

Like padraic I am far from what you might call the perfect male specimen. I'm extremely skinny, my voice is soft and light, I've always been gentle in nature and rather timid and fairly awkward and lacking in confidence. No woman has ever looked at me and thought "Cor. I wouldn't kick that one out of bed" and never will. I can't help thinking though that it would have been nice if one had. Just for once to have been able to look at a woman who's a total stranger and see desire in her eyes.

0beron · 28-04-07 05:19:58

The poet William Blake once wrote that nature has no outline, whereas imagination does. Did he mean that nature is indifferent to where the tree leaves off and the ground begins? Also, he said imagination, but isn't it really intelligence?

Intelligence is what we use to cut things apart, to divide one whole thing from another whole thing, and then divide each whole thing into it's component parts, and so on. Maybe gender is an example of that. We start with a thing called a human being (which we've already drawn an outline around to distinguish it from, say, a dog), and then slice it in two to get man and woman.

As soon as we do that, we run into problems too numerous and familiar to list, which is why, I suppose, that the concept of a personal identity is so important to people, and why so much hostility comes out when someone else's idea of their identity goes against the grain of what we hold to be our identity.

The_Elfman wrote:

To be honest my gender is not something I think about much these days.

I'd put myself in that same bucket, but if I'm honest with myself I have to admit that the reason I don't think about it is because no-one ever challenges it. If people started saying 'she' or 'ze' in reference to me you can bet I would start thinking about it.

This is Khanada's position, if I understand it correctly. Her self-image is under (indirect) challenge, and so she is holding her own gender in question. It's an ugly dilemma, because even though she has doubts, she doesn't seem to feel entitled to those doubts. If self-identification is the new orthodoxy, then the only remaining sin is to be unsure of who or what you are.

I think everyone would feel the same way, and probably does at some point or another. It always reminds me of the way I was bullied at school (padraic we are brothers under the skin): the guys would never simply approach me and start threatening me or attacking me. If they'd done that I'd simply have defended myself without feeling any shame about it. If I'd been beaten then so be it - there's no shame in being beaten when it's two-or-more against one.

What the guys would do is keep me constantly guessing as to whether they were being friendly or not. There was never anything overt I could react to. Even when I got pushed down stairs or something like that (always when my back was turned), there was always the most profuse apology afterwards, the pious insistence that it was an accident, and the round of slightly-too-hard back-slapping to underline that we were all basically friends. They knew I didn't want to fight (most sane people find physical confrontation highly unpleasant), and so they carefully arranged things so that I always had a pretext and an opportunity to avoid fighting. They themselves didn't want to fight either.

It's the same with most of the propaganda/advertising we wade through every day. The fantasy is that the world is endlessly welcoming and hospitable. This fantasy has to be constantly reinforced to disguise the fact that only by making you feel insecure about yourself can you be manipulated into acting a certain way, usually by buying something. If some stranger told you: "You're very far from what a woman should be like" you'd simply tell them to fuck off and die, right? But if they can get you to tell yourself the same thing, who is there to defend you? Why, it is of course the same people whose loving reassurances caused you to doubt in the first place.

padraic · 28-04-07 09:18:06

This thread has such potential; we can learn so much from one another. Oberon, I was all too familiar with bullying as well. A group of kids may bully as a kind of peer reassurance that they're 'in' and 'cool', which means that someone else must be 'out'. Then there are the sadists who like being cruel; I knew more than one of those, especially those who bully much smaller kids. Khanada Faye, Elfman, and Oberon, I wonder where we got such negative ideas about ourselves? In other words, what makes some of us so susceptible to 'negative messages' about ourselves wherever such messages may come from?

Bullying, emotional or physical, is a part of the secret life of all too many kids, both girls and boys. As I've reflected on it, I think that it's when we have interalised a negative self-image that we become so much more sensitive to society's cruel whims. In my case, my father was all too often not a very happy or kind man. In fact he was emotionally cruel to everyone in the family, raging at us and calling us useless, stupid, and much worse. So when other kids mistreated me, I often (not always) just thought that I was being treated as I deserved. Kids think their parents know everything. In fact, for survival purposes children psychologically have to believe that their parents are right about things, because if they aren't they can't be depended upon to help us. So when our parents called us ugly or bad, we believed them. These dynamics can play out in any type of abusive relationship. The victim feels shame: 'I wouldn't be treated this way if I were a better, more worthwhile person', rather than the anger and self-assertion s/he ought to feel.

If we've been badly scarred emotionally, we've been set up to take other's cruel actions and comments to heart. These negative messages can take the form of direct name-calling or assaults, but as we know much more subtly as well, as in society's image of the 'ideal' man and woman that none of us are really like but that so many of us hate ourselves for not being.

How does this relate to gender? I would suspect that many of us (at first unconcsiously) reject who we really are because society dictates that proper human beings only fit into a very narrow spectrum. We naturally want to fit in, so we try to sever the offending parts of ourselves, deny them as long as we can. When we do admit them, we may have a long struggle before we can both acknowledge these aspects of ourselves and still treat ourselves kindly. When I wrote this last sentence I thought back to a gay female friend of mine some years ago. She was very outspoken and up front about being gay. Yet a couple of times she revealed that she still felt tremendous shame about being 'different' from what others (society? parents?) expected and wanted. Owning ourselves with honesty and compassion is the work of a lifetime.

Last edited by padraic (28-04-07 09:18:42)

jwhite · 28-04-07 15:44:08

My father was in the military when I was young. We moved frequently; as such, I was "the new kid" a lot.

We, as societies, invariably assign status. Breeding rights, food, shelter... down to who will play with whom on the playground- so each new school required me to prove myself again. What that meant for a male in the '60's was:

1. Show no emotion. Vulnerability would get one torn apart. See Oberon above.

2. Pick a fight with the toughest kid at school. When he says, "Hit me first", do so- in the nose, hard enought to draw blood. Fight usually over at this point; you are either crazy or cool, so are either left alone or are now "cool".

3. Dress properly. Don't stand out.

4. Either mock, ignore, or beat up anyone who is different.

Not too far from "Lord of the Flies", and I wager that things have not changed much. Once I'd gotten into first fight, and was crazy, I could hang out with any one I chose, but the other social conformers still came into play. You have to be really, really cool to be an early adopter and get away with it.

Of course, this has lifelong consequences. Is it any wonder so many marriages fail when neither party is revealling themselves honestly? One failed marriage, check. Is it any wonder so few people are happy when so much effort is spent erecting a facade? Then, sometimes, you grow up (human-wise, not age-wise). Sometimes you just get sick of the bullshit and say, "This is me. Take it or sod off.". Sometimes you meet someone with whom you can just be who you are, no pretense, emotionally naked and vulnerable to one anothe, no advantage sought or taken (second wife, check).

I wish that I claim that the second missus turned me into the perfect human. Not so; I'm just a better man than I was before I met her. (if you would like to know more about her, check out my other posts, esp. in A Little Romance). Maybe I would approach perfection if we were still together; I'll have to trust to faith that I have eternity for that. I would hope that we can all learn to be better versions of ourselves, both in accepting who we are and others for who they are.

Gender? Doesn't everyone want to be the "guy" sometimes, and the "girl" others? There's biology (inescapable) and there's attitude (be who/what you want). Way too simplified, but in the immortal words of R. King, (LAPD motto- Every Man A King) "Can't we all just get along?".

tryggvi · 28-04-07 17:15:08

Khanada Faye wrote:

It has been hammered into me by all sorts of means that I shouldn't like my body as it is, that the general populace certainly doesn't like it because they don't want to look at it in television shows, films, magazines, advertisements (unless, of course, it's the "before" picture of a NutriSystem commercial). Of course, my amazonian build is compounded by the fact that I don't act like a lady, so I am doubly guilty of corrupting my biological sex with contradictory behavior. And I get so angry at myself for feeling this way--I don't deserve to have such negative feelings directed toward me from me (the world does it enough as it is!). But it's incredibly difficult to break through the programming and realize that there isn't a "wrong" when it comes to gender and gender expression.

Screw 'em. Keep in mind the general populace is you and me. Few guys marry Playboy bunnies. Few women marry professional athletes or power hungry studs. The majority of us are just regular folk with warts and blemishes. And remember, Marilyn Monroe was a size 12-14.

I dunno how old you are, but the body image stuff becomes unimportant as one gets older (at least for most people). If you haven't seen "Wild Hogs" check it out; it's a tribute to middle-aged guys confonting the fact that they are old and out of shape, have to pee every 20 minutes and their glory days are long gone. At my age, I don't give a shit what anyone else thinks.

My wife is 5'9" (175cm) and about 260lbs (118K) with PCOS/metabolic syndrome and her personality is largely male. (When she gets mad at me she will say, "Suck my dick!" to which I reply, "I'd say 'whip it out' but you probably would." Doesn't take any crap from anyone (especially me) and has been in senior management. Likes to hog the remote and channel surf, and she was merciless the last time she bought a new car!

I'm 6' (183cm) and weigh about the same. My personality has always been largely female, although I have cultivated my more masculine traits as I've gotten older. (Some guy came on to me in college, which didn't freak me out; I just told him my girlfriend wouldn't be too happy.) I like to cook, I like classical music, I've been very sensitive in the past. I hate shopping and my wife dresses me, so that part is definitely male.

We've alternated roles. I stayed home for a year and she worked. I do a lot of the cooking and cleaning (I also do the home improvement crap). We've been married for 8 years, lived together for 10 and have known each other for 30 years. It works and we're happy.

I think everyone has male and female traits that are expressed to varying degrees, and they are influenced by genetics as well as environment. But you are who you are and there's nothing to be ashamed of or apologize for.

Last edited by tryggvi (28-04-07 17:19:08)

Khanada Faye · 28-04-07 18:17:02

Tryggvi, I'm 28.

I just wanted to let everyone know that I am reading this thread voraciously. I'll respond to individual points eventually, but right now I just want to give everyone else the space to speak. Thank you all for sharing such personal and, often, difficult information. I look forward to seeing the discussion continue!

Desertgirl44 · 29-04-07 05:33:04

The_Elfman wrote:

I'm individual and unique. I don't like it when people try to pigeon hole or limit me with stereotypes.

Like Elfman I regard myself as an individual and unique. And I particularly dislike the narrow spectrum of stereotypes mass media offers up to us as "our choices". My individuality is my umbrella or primary identity, gender is secondary.

Bridgett made an interesting comment in her interview where she said her gender identity did not have much to do with her sexuality. For me, much of what I feel does come back to sexuality, but not necessarily my sexual orientation.

I am a woman and I strongly identify as a woman. Why? Why do I fee female? Biologically of course I am female, but what makes me "feel" female?

Body image issues don't play a big role in my life or identity. No, I don't have that perfect body, but I do have a quiet acceptance of my imperfect body. I see the images our media present to us of perfect body, flawless skin, correct fashion and make-up choices, the right hairstyle etc etc. And I look around at society and see that most of us don't fit that mold. Where I see friends struggling with body and fashion issues, I just say "stuff it, this is me, this is how I like to dress, if you don't like it then tough". So I'm lucky in that regard. (This isn't to say I don't have the occasional moment of self-doubt or discomfort.)

After spending a lot of time over the past couple of days pondering the question of gender identity, I was quite startled by the conclusion. The really big issue for me is the fact I have had children. I have grown life inside my body and given birth. Even though it was more than 20 years ago, this is still a major factor in my personal identity. I run my hands over my belly (loose skin and stretch marks still in evidence) and I am in awe of what my body has done. I feel feminine, I feel sexual, I feel strong and beautiful. The other big issue for me is the relationship I have with my vagina. I love, I adore the sensation of being filled by my lover's fingers or cock. I adore feeling the most intimate part of my body wrapping around, enveloping my lover. Physically it is the closest way a lover can get to my soul, to touch my very core. So for me it all comes down to my sex organs and the fact that I feel good about them. Even my monthly cycle with its occasional painful ovulation or period does not put me off. Instead I actually feel good about my periods and now erratic cycles as I enter my menopause. It's all wonderful and fascinating and feels good. This is what makes me strongly identify as female, what makes me "feel" female.

People have spoken in this thread about how they don't necessarily fit the mold of typical man or woman. It can be hard asserting your individuality when society places so many expectations upon us. In my town I am looked upon as a bit odd - I'm not a "typical" female conforming to fashion trends and I'm a bit "out there" and shocking with some of my thoughts and opinions. Self-confidence (or the ability to bluff) can be a most useful skill to learn. Along with coming to peace with yourself.

0beron · 29-04-07 06:25:23

Is it possible to invent a gender? I was thinking about this thread this morning while looking over a menu in a cafe. The gender menu in most establishments generally has only M or F. Could I put down A? or Z? What would that mean? Am I allowed to have a gender of my own, or must it be one that other people already have?

It seems like the kind of questions that mostly get asked about gender boil down to the configuration of your genitals. Do you have a cock or a pussy? Shouldn't the allowed choices then be C or P? Why aren't they?

From a practical point of view, it's unlikely that calls for an individualistic gender are going to be respected. There are restrooms for people with cocks and people with pussies. Also jails.

I suppose, if I wanted people to think I was a bit of an ass, when asked to identify whether I identified as male or female I could answer 'zombie'*. And then when they asked me to explain what that meant, I could reply by asking what the original question meant, and what the two choices meant.

Sadly, I don't think this is going to prevent me being arrested when I try to use the women's change rooms at the gym.

This line of inquiry has ground to a halt because now I can't stop thinking of the whole dick vs pussy vs asshole theory in that movie Team America: World Police.

* Because zombies are attracted to people with brains.

#1 27-04-07 05:49:24

Gender: The Thread

#2 27-04-07 08:08:57

Re: Gender: The Thread

#3 27-04-07 09:19:54

Re: Gender: The Thread

#4 27-04-07 12:12:30

Re: Gender: The Thread

#5 28-04-07 05:19:58

Re: Gender: The Thread

#6 28-04-07 09:18:06

Re: Gender: The Thread

#7 28-04-07 15:44:08

Re: Gender: The Thread

#8 28-04-07 17:15:08

Re: Gender: The Thread

#9 28-04-07 18:17:02

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#10 29-04-07 05:33:04

Re: Gender: The Thread

#11 29-04-07 06:25:23

Re: Gender: The Thread

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