#1 01-08-22 22:32:29

Hangdog90

Member

Registered: 24-01-16

Posts: 1,645

Consultation on Relationships Sex Education and Pornography

Dear all,

Below I have reproduced an important opinion piece on pornography and relationship and sex education in Ireland. It was published at the weekend in the main national newspaper The Irish Times, as part of debating a consultation document on relationship and sex education for children in Ireland.

Of note Ireland was until about 20 years ago dominated by Catholicism and the view of masturbation was that it was sinful. Masturbation is mentioned only obliquely in the new document, but of note this is at least in a neutral way. However there is a wider issue of access to, and the nature of, pornography online.

There are mnay thoughtful people on this forum so I would appreciate your thoughts on this issue.

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Opinion
By Breda O'Brien
The Irish Times 30 July 2022.

WE NEED A BETTER ANSWER TO PORN THAN ETHICAL PORN

As parents we have to step up. We cannot conveniently subcontract sex education to schools, and as adults we cannot hide behind ideas like ethical porn.

ARTICLE

Driven by the so-called Triple A engine of the internet, access, affordability and anonymity, people encounter pornography at younger and younger ages.

How to respond to that reality is less clear. Even within feminism, there are different camps. One group declares that porn reflects and intensifies dangerous and sexist attitudes toward women because it objectifies and commodifies women. This group sees it as an intersectional issue because it also reflects and intensifies racist attitudes.

Another group of feminists see adult use of pornography as unproblematic, provided that it is produced under ethical conditions. Ethical porn, allegedly, is pornography produced legally (no underage or trafficked people), with fair pay, good working conditions, testing for sexually transmitted infections, and ongoing emphasis on consent for all the parties. Consumption of ethical porn is then an unproblematic leisure time activity.

You could argue that consent makes a reasonable foundation but a terrible ceiling when it comes to sexual activity but you could not argue that consent is not essential

Both groups agree that young people receiving education about sex from pornography is a problem because the vast majority of free porn is not only violent, misogynistic, racist and but also associated with trafficking and exploitation.

There is a consultation under way in Ireland about relationship and sexuality education at Junior Cycle level (for students aged 12-15). Which view of porn will prevail?

Much of the media attention has focused on consent and education about pornography. You could argue that consent makes a reasonable foundation but a terrible ceiling when it comes to sexual activity but you could not argue that consent is not essential.

The only reference to pornography in the 27-page consultation document is that students should be able to ‘investigate the influence of digital media (in particular, the influence of pornography) on young people’s understanding, expectations and social norms in relation to sexual expression.’

National University of Ireland (NUI) Galway has been to the fore when it comes to consent education at third level and their programme, Active Consent, is cited as a resource in the toolkit for educators who will be designing the new Junior Cycle RSE.

Dr Kate Dawson, the pornography expert on Active Consent, who has been involved in primary and secondary RSE in the West of Ireland, has argued that what is needed is porn literacy — the ability to distinguish between good and bad porn

According to Journal.ie she said at the start of NUI Galway SMART Consent research, that “it is not good enough to just say that ‘porn is bad’ because it is not, people really enjoy watching it, there are a lot of positive uses, but people need to have the skills to make their own mind up about the content they see because porn is so varied”. Like others, this places Dawson in the “ethical porn is okay” category.

Let’s engage in a thought experiment involving any woman in the public eye. Her appearance, intelligence, professional competence and if she has children, parenting skills, are already probably a subject for commentary on social media.

If ethical porn is inherently unproblematic, if this woman also receives a query as to whether she has an (ethical) OnlyFans account, that is simply a pleasant potential transaction between consenting adults.

The problem with consent as the highest value — instead of simply the foundation — is that once it is present, it means that there are no further ethical questions

After all, she could simply answer yes or no and get on with her day. She certainly should not shame anyone making such a request or make them feel in any way odd for having asked.

(If you have no idea what OnlyFans is, you have no idea how much I envy you. You might think about not looking it up while at work, though.)

Except this is not how the world works. Most women would be repelled and offended by this request and see it as demeaning because it means that the person is being perceived as a source of sexual gratification rather than a human being.

The problem with consent as the highest value — instead of simply the foundation — is that once it is present, it means that there are no further ethical questions.

For example, Dr Dawson was involved in a work presented by Bedfellows at the Tate Modern in 2017, called “Porn as Pedagogy”. It featured short extracts from seven films that portrayed sexual activity ranging from felatio to BDSM — described as “consensual power exchange that included physical sensations like spanking, electricity and being blindfolded”.

It was produced under ethical conditions and Dawson and her fellow authors say, “if any porn exemplified what really good porn could be, this was it”.

Which view of pornography will prevail in the new relationships and sexuality education (RSE)? As parents we have to step up. We cannot conveniently subcontract sex education to schools.

When opportunities occur, such as Billie Eilish saying late last year that porn destroyed her brain, use it as a way of asking casual questions like “do you think your friends would be comfortable discussing something like this with parents?” Be prepared for it to be awkward — lots of parenting is.

As adults we cannot abdicate, nor hide behind ideas like ethical porn, which is like suggesting a ten-euro inflatable mattress as an adequate response to a 30-metre high tsunami.

Make your views known on this consultation: ncca.ie/en/junior-cycle

Fredrikali

Member

Registered: 29-07-22

Posts: 32

Re: Consultation on Relationships Sex Education and Pornography

Having read the Breda O'Brien’s article, I wonder what she really wants. To me it looks she wants a porn ban, but I’m not sure.

"One group declares that porn reflects and intensifies dangerous and sexist attitudes toward women because it objectifies and commodifies women. This group sees it as an intersectional issue because it also reflects and intensifies racist attitudes."

This is a problem with activists from critical theory camps whose basis for all activity is the notion that everything is political, which immediately – and usually – turns into "you must do it my way, otherwise I don't feel well".

I understand what O'Brien writes about commodifying women, but is it still a valid point today when not even members of the US Supreme Court can declare what a woman is? Doesn’t porn commodify people, in such a case, or are men not subject to commodification, or is that not a problem, given that there is such a thing as ’men’, which no longer seems to be no way near certainty?

Breda O’Brien writes about OnlyFans. I have no idea of what that is, but I suppose it doesn't differ much from other products on the market, worse or better. But she writes:

"The problem with consent as the highest value — instead of simply the foundation — is that once it is present, it means that there are no further ethical questions...You could argue that consent makes a reasonable foundation but a terrible ceiling when it comes to sexual activity but you could not argue that consent is not essential."

I agree with this. However, consent is not the highest value of ethical porn, it is in fact the foundation, if the same porn indeed is 'ethical' as in the way I perceive ifm to be.

The difference lies in that consent may be the highest value in unethical porn.

But as with any such label, it can be abused to lure people into buying an unethical product, even though it may scare some ’unethicist’ people off. Still, a "positive" label is better than a "negative": The Parental Advisory label on music albums didn't diminish sales of unethical music, instead it attracted buyers.

The question remains: Who will decide what is ethical? In the case of big business, it’s the Fascist complex (big business+government) as is happening now when desired parts of the weapons industry is included into the new Green Sustainable Economy pushed by legislators, politicians and lobbyists. What is sustainable about war machines?

"Both [feminist] groups agree that young people receiving education about sex from pornography is a problem because the vast majority of free porn is not only violent, misogynistic, racist and but also associated with trafficking and exploitation."

If heterosexual porn is intrinsically violent since coitus where a man is involved always is violence with some feminists (I don't remember ever having heard any such feminist claim male gay porn is violence!), you could argue that the vast majority of porn is violent.

However, I don’t remember having seen any factually violent porn, and if I did, I immediately turned away, so I have in fact no recollection of having seen such violence.

Same thing with racism: I don’t remember having seen any racist porn, even though there must be some.

There is a lot of bi- and multiracial porn, and perhaps we may grant that some producers express their racism through their products. A few ostentatious declarations in this direction have made newspaper headlines, as when the Jewish professor of American History at Aberdeen University in UK, Nathan Abrams, in 2014 himself claimed that Jews are the driving force behind the worldwide modern pornographic industry and that their motivation is in part – besides making money – to destroy Gentile morals.

Al Goldstein, the publisher of Screw, once stated that the only reason that Jews are in pornography is that they think that "Christ sucks, Catholicism sucks" and that they don’t believe in authoritarianism: Pornography is a way of defiling Christian culture and as such it penetrates to the very heart of the American mainstream. Is this something Breda O’Brien feels (she seems to lament Eire being less Catholic, these days)?

And Greg Lansky, who after having been part of Reality King formed his own industry-awarded studios is said to adhere to the same racism and for example uses his blacked.com to have White women ”ruined by Blacks” in some sort of racist endeavour while making money – a horrible racist stance towards Blacks and Whites alike.

There is or has been other expressions of racism within the industry, for example White and Jewish women getting paid more for doing porn with Black men than with white-looking men – why indeed should working with a Black man be more objectionable and cause for a demand in higher wages?

I’m sure there are other things as well, but these things don’t show on screen; and such racism permeates the whole of society. Not to defend such racism, of course!

Also, there is a difference between the odd producer and their consumers. I am 100% positive most of blacked.com’s customers are no more racist with their porn than they are in their everyday lives: We can get off by interracial sex in a race-affirmative way. Porn with one White and one Black actor can be aesthetically very beautiful, I think. Norwegian pornographer Petter Hegre has done some good photographic work in this way, almost Newton/Mapplethorpe-like.

I had a male White friend who boasted he was racist: ”I’m a racist, I only like Black women”. I’m not sure it was a very nice thing to declare, because I still think there is an element of unintentional (bad) racism in it, even though I find it hard to put my finger on it; but at least he chose to be that way out of desire, not out of hatred or ill-intent. I don't think it's racist to hire POC in porn, or whatever. Personally, I am aroused by women of all and any race (but not by [what I perceive as being] men of any race). And I really don’t perceive porn to be racist, in general. If it is, I would like to know what Breda O’Brien and her referred two feminist camps mean by this statement in a factual way, not in a metaphysical critical-theory way.

On the point of trafficking: I certain this is a major problem. Unfortunately it doesn’t show in videos, so it’s not easy deselecting such productions. Surely this is where a non-fraudulent ”ethical” sticker is helpful, also when parents and teachers talk about it?

The label "ethical" porn is of course problematic. What is ethical immediately becomes political when classified as such, and the Moral Minority (or Hostile Minority/Majority) may try to put checks on otherwise unproblematic productions or expressions.

ifm is the only site I ever subscribed to, and this is no small thing to me: I usually say porn shouldn’t be banned but ideally allowed only as non-commercial private pornography; say as in a couple filming themselves, sharing it with their friends for free, and similar. Commerce is the root of much evil in many areas, as is the case with the trafficking mentioned by O’Brien. So in some ways I acknowledge problems raised by O’Brien. But her target in her article is of course protection & safety for children, to reach whatever ends.

However, as long as porn is allowed, the schools no doubt will tell children what porn is preferable from a social point of view, which indeed will favour ethical porn such as ifm.

Breda O’Brien doesn't want to leave sex ed to schools, but seems to blame the schools for the route they may be taking. Bad effects from school indoctrination can be counterbalanced by we talking with our young ones about sex, and let it be known to them what stances we take ourselves. Hopefully, we are somewhat good as role models.

Many years ago, I posted the following clip of Janet McGeever's TEDx talk "It's called making love, isn't it?"
Although I was met with some scepticism, I still find it a wonderful presentation. She is stronger anti-porn than the ifm audience is, but what she says can be useful. Rather than trying to ban or steer youngsters away from porn – or away from government approved porn – a more important way of protecting our children lies in making them understand what porn does to you, and how we can consume and interact with it in a non-destructive manner.

This is supported, I believe, in O’Brien’s article statement on Billie Eilish saying late last year that porn destroyed her brain. However anecdotal, it rings true to what many people seem to suffer, and to what McGeever says on the alarmingly growing number of young males suffering from impotence.

On a personal note, I also showed this clip to my children who much appreciated it and since then still watch some porn but haven’t lost themselves to it, as I understand the situation (they still live with us parents).

https://youtu.be/wvXBCSiPRBQ

The key seems to lie in not conflating porn with ones own eroticism too much, but keep some integrity to one's sexuality, not to let it be hi-jacked by Big Tech, screen usage and other people’s images when we feel sexy. By letting porn replace our natural sexuality, we tend to lose much of it, it seems.

Similar things are being said by Western, otherwise quite rough hardcore tantra organizations like the TNT: ”Don’t watch porn while masturbating, if you must consume porn, turn it off when you do any form of sex”.

For those who haven’t seen porn actress Ovidie’s documentary Pornocracy: The New Sex Multinationals, from 2017, on the financial situation of the modern porn industry and how it is detrimental to the situation for actresses and actors (and producers!), this film also shows an interesting side to the problem of ethics in and of easily accessible porn.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6503230/

O’Brien’s conclusion reads: As adults we cannot abdicate, nor hide behind ideas like ethical porn.
I agree we adults must not abdicate but take our responsibility, not handing it over to the government (school).
If we take our responsibility, we will not hide behind ideas or ethic labels.

Again: I wonder what Breda O'Brien really wants. If we want to reduce porn consumption, we can do what the UK discussed and what the state of Israel in fact did by having citizens register with an agency declaring they want to consume porn online. This will, of course, put a mark in the records of that citizen, and my guess is that the Israeli government thought some people will refrain from applying for porn-passes for that reason. I guess the British government didn’t want to limit porn accessibility.

A porn ban will be easily doable as governments around the world and the EU/UN/WHO now plan for personal digital IDs. IDs will give the possibility for tailored access: An individual person with a low social credit score may be unable to purchase a certain product, e.g. a train ticket (as in China) or more than two pounds of meat per week; an alcoholic may not be able to purchase more than six beers per month, Republicans and ”White supremacists” may be banned from buying books on politics; minors, opponents to gender affirmative sex operations and sex offenders may be stopped from accessing porn sites; whatever the government or some influential corporation or lobby group demands.

I see more dangers than blessings coming from such legislation, but the recent years seem to indicate we are heading in this direction, in many places; at least this it how it seems at the moment.

I don’t know if my post would help Breda O’Brien, but this is what I thought after having read your post.

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