#1 24-02-22 18:21:18

Hangdog90

Member

Registered: 24-01-16

Posts: 1,645

Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

Russia has invaded Ukraine and threatens the global democratic order. As you read this, unknown suffering and death is already being visited on the population of Ukraine.

Freedom includes the freedom to make porn.

The United States, European Union (EU) , United Kingdom, Australia and Japan all stand in solidarity against Russian aggression. Every deterrent helps.

Until Putin withdraws from Ukraine, should Russian people be aloowed to participate in the porn industry in our countries?

Should there be official sanctions so that companies and web sites neither employ Russian citizens nor allow them to subscribe to their platforms?

richard

Administrator

Registered: 14-03-06

Posts: 3,395

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

Why punish the people?  I asked one of our Russian contributors and she told me that ordinary Russians are embarrassed by what's happening, but if they protest they'll be put in jail.  With sanctions, they'll need their earnings from porn even more.

Hangdog90

Member

Registered: 24-01-16

Posts: 1,645

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

Why punish the people?  I asked one of our Russian contributors and she told me that ordinary Russians are embarrassed by what's happening, but if they protest they'll be put in jail.  With sanctions, they'll need their earnings from porn even more.

137 Ukrainians were killed on day one of the invasion and 500 were injured. Sixteen cities were bombed and tens of thousands of refugees are pouring across the border into Poland.

Putin will only be removed when ordinary Russian people realise that the consequences of his crimes will be felt by them on the ground. Like the ordinary Germans who did nothing to stop the Holocaust, those in Russia who shrug rheir shoulders and carry on as normal, saying it's not their problem, ARE facilitating crimes against the people of Ukraine.

Putin has invaded Crimea, Georgia and put in a puppet dictator in Belarus. He has murdered Russian citizens on UK soil. All this was done with a resulting impunity that has emboldened him to attack Ukraine. It's time to stop appeasement and make Russia pay for its crimes.

How can you speak of ethical porn if you are part of supporting the people of a rogue nation financially?

smoothed

Member

Registered: 11-08-15

Posts: 606

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

How can you speak of ethical porn if you are part of supporting the people of a rogue nation financially?

This is a bit of a reductive argument. Again, as richard as stated, the "people of a rogue nation" that you speak of are in many cases just as oppressed and marginalised by their own government and need our help. Not all Russian citizens support the war. And Putin has already entrenched himself in power, and has put in place statues that prevent democratic processes from happening unimpeded. It's not as straightforward as to say that the will of the Russian people can just have him removed.

Last edited by smoothed (25-02-22 02:23:51)

_redbird_

Member

Registered: 22-04-16

Posts: 388

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

How can you speak of ethical porn if you are part of supporting the people of a rogue nation financially?

This is a bit of a reductive argument. Again, as richard as stated, the "people of a rogue nation" that you speak of are in many cases just as oppressed and marginalised by their own government and need our help. Not all Russian citizens support the war. And Putin has already entrenched himself in power, and has put in place statues that prevent democratic processes from happening unimpeded. It's not as straightforward as to say that the will of the Russian people can just have him removed.

Really well said Smoothed. I'm actually quite taken back by this post. This question is quite upsetting and genuinely baffling.

richard

Administrator

Registered: 14-03-06

Posts: 3,395

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

Why punish the people?  I asked one of our Russian contributors and she told me that ordinary Russians are embarrassed by what's happening, but if they protest they'll be put in jail.  With sanctions, they'll need their earnings from porn even more.

137 Ukrainians were killed on day one of the invasion and 500 were injured. Sixteen cities were bombed and tens of thousands of refugees are pouring across the border into Poland.

Putin will only be removed when ordinary Russian people realise that the consequences of his crimes will be felt by them on the ground. Like the ordinary Germans who did nothing to stop the Holocaust, those in Russia who shrug rheir shoulders and carry on as normal, saying it's not their problem, ARE facilitating crimes against the people of Ukraine.

Putin has invaded Crimea, Georgia and put in a puppet dictator in Belarus. He has murdered Russian citizens on UK soil. All this was done with a resulting impunity that has emboldened him to attack Ukraine. It's time to stop appeasement and make Russia pay for its crimes.

How can you speak of ethical porn if you are part of supporting the people of a rogue nation financially?

They're living under a totalitarian regime, there's nothing they can do.  Look what Putin did to the opposition leader.  You speak up, you disappear.  They're also scared.

Hangdog90

Member

Registered: 24-01-16

Posts: 1,645

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

I'm actually quite taken back by this post. This question is quite upsetting and genuinely baffling.

Richard has made good and reasonable arguments against sanctions, in that in effect tbey may harm the wrong people and not have any impact on the leadership. Therefore they may be neither ethically sound nor tactically effective.

The history of economic sanctions has been that they have rarely been effective. As an example, the US sanctions on Iraq caused enormous suffering among tye population but did not have any impact on the leadership. In this new case, sanctions against high net worth Russians with assets in the West might have soke effect, but probably largely symbolic. Several footballing organisations have already indicated they will not participate in World Cup qualifiers against Russia.

There have been some Rissian providers here on Ifeelmyself and it is not my intention to upset them by raising this question. 

Redbird, you said you were upset and baffled by my question. Perhaps you are one of those providers and if so, sorry you are upset. But I still think this is a question that can be raised for debate.

As I type this message it is the early hours of the morning in Ukraine, and bombs have been falling during the night. The people in the shelters in Kyiv are the ones who have the most right to be baffled and upset.

Last edited by Hangdog90 (25-02-22 05:24:47)

richard

Administrator

Registered: 14-03-06

Posts: 3,395

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

The point of sanctions is largely symbolic, to show solidarity.  They try to target the oligarchs but ordinary people will suffer.  History shows that nothing deters madmen, you have to hunt them down and put them out of business.

privignus

Member

Registered: 29-12-15

Posts: 607

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

The point of sanctions is largely symbolic, to show solidarity.  They try to target the oligarchs but ordinary people will suffer.  History shows that nothing deters madmen, you have to hunt them down and put them out of business.

I was impressed that Norway seized a Russian oligarch's $100m yacht before it left Norwegian waters.  Seizing wealthy Russians' overseas assets would probably do more than stopping some hunters from Siberia from selling elk skins to a tannery in Slovenia (or stopping a woman from Peter from selling nudes).

Patreon has suspended the account of a Ukranian charity "Come back alive" which provides defensive equipment, medical training, and post-demobilization support to the Ukranian military.

Last edited by privignus (25-02-22 23:20:29)

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Res est arduissima vincere naturam,
in aspectu virginis mentem esse puram

alsbosilver

Member

Registered: 15-07-19

Posts: 554

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

As an answer, I propose already to pay tribute to the only two Ukrainian women present on IFM, Marichka and Caprice. They are both beautiful and we think of her... Look at them...

Last edited by alsbosilver (27-02-22 12:46:26)

Hangdog90

Member

Registered: 24-01-16

Posts: 1,645

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

The point of sanctions is largely symbolic, to show solidarity.  They try to target the oligarchs but ordinary people will suffer.  History shows that nothing deters madmen, you have to hunt them down and put them out of business.

When sanctions hit the ordinary people, that makes their evil leader unpopular and motivates him to reconsider his actions.

I have heard today that Pornhub has blocked access to Russian users. They get a Ukrainian flag and a message asking Russia to stop the war.

I have also heard that Onlyfans is blocking Russian users AND providers, and the removal of SWIFT this coming week from Russian banks will kill all international money transfers into Russia.

Meanwhile tens of thousands of women and children pour over the borders into Poland to safe haven.

Last edited by Hangdog90 (27-02-22 14:34:02)

MS2020

Member

Registered: 06-11-20

Posts: 199

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

The point of sanctions is largely symbolic, to show solidarity.  They try to target the oligarchs but ordinary people will suffer.  History shows that nothing deters madmen, you have to hunt them down and put them out of business.

When sanctions hit the ordinary people, that makes their evil leader unpopular and motivates him to reconsider his actions.

From all of read and hear so far it seems this leader has already become larger unpopular. Maybe not unpopular enough, but freedom of assembly and the press has already been gutted. Antiwar protest have already arrived in the streets in mass despite the risk of arrest. It's hard to tell what the more the masses can do within their own country to resist at this point. I'd be very interested in knowing what Russian war opponents would even propose if anything.
I supposed that's a question worth exploring further, but I doubt sanctions are going to do much to increase an effective form of protest.

Last edited by MS2020 (06-05-22 20:15:16)

richard

Administrator

Registered: 14-03-06

Posts: 3,395

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

The point of sanctions is largely symbolic, to show solidarity.  They try to target the oligarchs but ordinary people will suffer.  History shows that nothing deters madmen, you have to hunt them down and put them out of business.

When sanctions hit the ordinary people, that makes their evil leader unpopular and motivates him to reconsider his actions.

I have heard today that Pornhub has blocked access to Russian users. They get a Ukrainian flag and a message asking Russia to stop the war.

I have also heard that Onlyfans is blocking Russian users AND providers, and the removal of SWIFT this coming week from Russian banks will kill all international money transfers into Russia.

Meanwhile tens of thousands of women and children pour over the borders into Poland to safe haven.

Being unpopular doesn't worry a psychopathic dictator!  Let's just hope he likes porn.

privignus

Member

Registered: 29-12-15

Posts: 607

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

Being unpopular doesn't worry a psychopathic dictator!  Let's just hope he likes porn.

The Soviets had an archive of filthy capitalist exploitation of proletarian bodies confiscated in the mail and at the border.  Apparently quite a few senior Communist Party members had borrowing privileges, just to understand what disgusting things the capitalists got up to :roll eyes:

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Res est arduissima vincere naturam,
in aspectu virginis mentem esse puram

Mew

Member

Registered: 06-03-13

Posts: 789

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

I'm just gonna leave this here.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VakUHHUSdf8

Worth watching with subtitles/reading the lyrics

Last edited by Mew (03-03-22 00:01:36)

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IFM video editor / contributor

puuma2004

Member

Registered: 02-05-22

Posts: 13

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

Russia has invaded Ukraine and threatens the global democratic order. As you read this, unknown suffering and death is already being visited on the population of Ukraine.

Freedom includes the freedom to make porn.

The United States, European Union (EU) , United Kingdom, Australia and Japan all stand in solidarity against Russian aggression. Every deterrent helps.

Until Putin withdraws from Ukraine, should Russian people be aloowed to participate in the porn industry in our countries?

Should there be official sanctions so that companies and web sites neither employ Russian citizens nor allow them to subscribe to their platforms?

This is an unbelievably reductive and bigoted view.

Should American citizens be maligned the world over because America is supporting the Saudi genocide in Yemen, and is directly causing the current famine in Afghanistan through sanctions?

It's baffling to me that people here in the West will go for decades ignoring what their countries inflict upon the world, and then lose their minds over one invasion conducted by someone else. You fancy yourselves the "global democratic order" but your global democratic order is built on the bones of billions of Black and Brown people, and on the flesh of billions more being exploited to this day. No one is a bigger enemy to global democracy, or a bigger supporter or global capitalism and authoritarianism than the United States.

You want to try to influence the course of the war? You go after Putin and he oligarchs involved. If you target a single, solitary, ordinary Russian that's not responsible for this war, and you've gone too far already. Your subsequent argument that "137 Ukrainians were killed on day one of the invasion and 500 were injured. Sixteen cities were bombed and tens of thousands of refugees are pouring across the border into Poland." tacitly implies that anything you put ordinary Russians through short of that is justified because the Ukrainians have it worse. That's not how anything works. If you want to stop global terrorism and imperialism, maybe pay more attention when your countries do more harm to more countries than Putin could hope to invade in a century. If you can pay attention to Ukraine, you can pay attention to Afghanistan, and Yemen, and Palestine, and the dozens of places currently being exploited by the West. At least in western countries, there's the pretense of democracy and the People can actually budge the political apparatus. Nothing like that exists in Russia.

Take it from a Russian. If you think that sanctioning ordinary people will influence them to turn on Putin, you've catastrophically miscalculated. Putin will point to the sanctions and say, "the west is to blame", and he'd be right. He instigated the war and is a war criminal, just like a great many world leaders. But no one forced the West to go balls to the wall and sanction everything Russian under the sun. Also, if you think the West isn't taking full advantage of this opportunity to weaken Russia through excessive sanctions at this moment, when you and millions like you are frothing at the mouth to punish all Russians, then you've no concept of how geopolitics works.

Hangdog90

Member

Registered: 24-01-16

Posts: 1,645

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

Russia has invaded Ukraine and threatens the global democratic order. As you read this, unknown suffering and death is already being visited on the population of Ukraine.

Freedom includes the freedom to make porn.

The United States, European Union (EU) , United Kingdom, Australia and Japan all stand in solidarity against Russian aggression. Every deterrent helps.

Until Putin withdraws from Ukraine, should Russian people be aloowed to participate in the porn industry in our countries?

Should there be official sanctions so that companies and web sites neither employ Russian citizens nor allow them to subscribe to their platforms?

This is an unbelievably reductive and bigoted view.

Should American citizens be maligned the world over because America is supporting the Saudi genocide in Yemen, and is directly causing the current famine in Afghanistan through sanctions?

It's baffling to me that people here in the West will go for decades ignoring what their countries inflict upon the world, and then lose their minds over one invasion conducted by someone else. You fancy yourselves the "global democratic order" but your global democratic order is built on the bones of billions of Black and Brown people, and on the flesh of billions more being exploited to this day. No one is a bigger enemy to global democracy, or a bigger supporter or global capitalism and authoritarianism than the United States.

You want to try to influence the course of the war? You go after Putin and he oligarchs involved. If you target a single, solitary, ordinary Russian that's not responsible for this war, and you've gone too far already. Your subsequent argument that "137 Ukrainians were killed on day one of the invasion and 500 were injured. Sixteen cities were bombed and tens of thousands of refugees are pouring across the border into Poland." tacitly implies that anything you put ordinary Russians through short of that is justified because the Ukrainians have it worse. That's not how anything works. If you want to stop global terrorism and imperialism, maybe pay more attention when your countries do more harm to more countries than Putin could hope to invade in a century. If you can pay attention to Ukraine, you can pay attention to Afghanistan, and Yemen, and Palestine, and the dozens of places currently being exploited by the West. At least in western countries, there's the pretense of democracy and the People can actually budge the political apparatus. Nothing like that exists in Russia.

Take it from a Russian. If you think that sanctioning ordinary people will influence them to turn on Putin, you've catastrophically miscalculated. Putin will point to the sanctions and say, "the west is to blame", and he'd be right. He instigated the war and is a war criminal, just like a great many world leaders. But no one forced the West to go balls to the wall and sanction everything Russian under the sun. Also, if you think the West isn't taking full advantage of this opportunity to weaken Russia through excessive sanctions at this moment, when you and millions like you are frothing at the mouth to punish all Russians, then you've no concept of how geopolitics works.

My comment was framed as a question, did you actually notice that?

As far as atrocities that can be chalked up to the US, that is "what about-ery" . Syria, Yemen and Afghanistan are all terribly distressing and as an EU citizen all I can do personally is donate as much as I can to help. You have no right to assume that I don't care about brown or black people.

But the issue on hand is Ukraine. For the first time since WW2 in Europe one sovereign country has invaded another with aggression and without provocation. Since the start it has prosecuted a criminal war, flattening cities and killing tens of thousands of civilians. And its military has committed atrocities of the most bestial type against occupied citizens, especially women and children.

These crimes are not the crimes of Putin. They are the crimes of Russia

puuma2004

Member

Registered: 02-05-22

Posts: 13

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

Russia has invaded Ukraine and threatens the global democratic order. As you read this, unknown suffering and death is already being visited on the population of Ukraine.

Freedom includes the freedom to make porn.

The United States, European Union (EU) , United Kingdom, Australia and Japan all stand in solidarity against Russian aggression. Every deterrent helps.

Until Putin withdraws from Ukraine, should Russian people be aloowed to participate in the porn industry in our countries?

Should there be official sanctions so that companies and web sites neither employ Russian citizens nor allow them to subscribe to their platforms?

This is an unbelievably reductive and bigoted view.

Should American citizens be maligned the world over because America is supporting the Saudi genocide in Yemen, and is directly causing the current famine in Afghanistan through sanctions?

It's baffling to me that people here in the West will go for decades ignoring what their countries inflict upon the world, and then lose their minds over one invasion conducted by someone else. You fancy yourselves the "global democratic order" but your global democratic order is built on the bones of billions of Black and Brown people, and on the flesh of billions more being exploited to this day. No one is a bigger enemy to global democracy, or a bigger supporter or global capitalism and authoritarianism than the United States.

You want to try to influence the course of the war? You go after Putin and he oligarchs involved. If you target a single, solitary, ordinary Russian that's not responsible for this war, and you've gone too far already. Your subsequent argument that "137 Ukrainians were killed on day one of the invasion and 500 were injured. Sixteen cities were bombed and tens of thousands of refugees are pouring across the border into Poland." tacitly implies that anything you put ordinary Russians through short of that is justified because the Ukrainians have it worse. That's not how anything works. If you want to stop global terrorism and imperialism, maybe pay more attention when your countries do more harm to more countries than Putin could hope to invade in a century. If you can pay attention to Ukraine, you can pay attention to Afghanistan, and Yemen, and Palestine, and the dozens of places currently being exploited by the West. At least in western countries, there's the pretense of democracy and the People can actually budge the political apparatus. Nothing like that exists in Russia.

Take it from a Russian. If you think that sanctioning ordinary people will influence them to turn on Putin, you've catastrophically miscalculated. Putin will point to the sanctions and say, "the west is to blame", and he'd be right. He instigated the war and is a war criminal, just like a great many world leaders. But no one forced the West to go balls to the wall and sanction everything Russian under the sun. Also, if you think the West isn't taking full advantage of this opportunity to weaken Russia through excessive sanctions at this moment, when you and millions like you are frothing at the mouth to punish all Russians, then you've no concept of how geopolitics works.

My comment was framed as a question, did you actually notice that?

As far as atrocities that can be chalked up to the US, that is "what about-ery" . Syria, Yemen and Afghanistan are all terribly distressing and as an EU citizen all I can do personally is donate as much as I can to help. You have no right to assume that I don't care about brown or black people.

But the issue on hand is Ukraine. For the first time since WW2 in Europe one sovereign country has invaded another with aggression and without provocation. Since the start it has prosecuted a criminal war, flattening cities and killing tens of thousands of civilians. And its military has committed atrocities of the most bestial type against occupied citizens, especially women and children.

These crimes are not the crimes of Putin. They are the crimes of Russia

Nope, that's not whataboutism. That's perspective. Afghanistan isn't just "terribly distressing". It's orders of magnitude worse than what's happening in Ukraine, and you lot can't be bothered to make a statement on in in between obsessive coverage of Ukraine and condemnation of every Russian under the sun.

Whataboutism is when you and people like you refuse to talk about atrocities committed by the West because "what about Ukraine?"

I'm fully capable of condemning both, and have on many occasions. Meanwhile, look at the apologetic language you're using with regard to western atrocities. "terribly distressing." 21 million people are starving in Afghanistan because the US withheld $7B in Afghan money to "punish" the Taliban. 1 million children could be dead at the end of the year if this continues, and that's not counting the hundreds of thousands to millions of adults who could share the same fate. Are a million Ukrainian children at risk of death? Millions have fled to neighbouring countries while Afghans have nowhere to go that will welcome them. Tens of billions in aid have flooded Ukraine while Afghanistan can't even get $7B of its own money back. All eyes and sympathies are on Ukraine while Afghans are left to die in obscurity, and when I bring your attention to it, all you can do is cry "whataboutism".

Also, who cares that for the first time since WWII one European country has attacked another? The rest of the world hasn't seen a moment's peace for centuries, and you're hyperfixating on one invasion because it happens to be in Europe? Maybe you should re-evaluate the weight you give to Human life, and separate it from the continent that life is on.

Also, remember this gem: "Until Putin withdraws from Ukraine, should Russian people be aloowed to participate in the porn industry in our countries?" Remember how you otherized all Russians on the basis of one man's invasion? I live in the US. I've lived here for nearly 22 years. Is it suddenly "your country" but no longer mine because I'm Russian and a lunatic half the world away invaded another country? You would never dream of asking this question if it were anyone else. Saudis, Israelis, Americans. Your mind would not go there in a hundred years, but when it's Russians, we're all guilty, aren't we?

Disgusting. And people like you marvel when you look back on Japanese internment during WWII. It's people like you who made it happen. People like you who couldn't see past national origin and judged a whole country of people to be guilty based on one thing.

Hangdog90

Member

Registered: 24-01-16

Posts: 1,645

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

This is an unbelievably reductive and bigoted view.

Should American citizens be maligned the world over because America is supporting the Saudi genocide in Yemen, and is directly causing the current famine in Afghanistan through sanctions?

It's baffling to me that people here in the West will go for decades ignoring what their countries inflict upon the world, and then lose their minds over one invasion conducted by someone else. You fancy yourselves the "global democratic order" but your global democratic order is built on the bones of billions of Black and Brown people, and on the flesh of billions more being exploited to this day. No one is a bigger enemy to global democracy, or a bigger supporter or global capitalism and authoritarianism than the United States.

You want to try to influence the course of the war? You go after Putin and he oligarchs involved. If you target a single, solitary, ordinary Russian that's not responsible for this war, and you've gone too far already. Your subsequent argument that "137 Ukrainians were killed on day one of the invasion and 500 were injured. Sixteen cities were bombed and tens of thousands of refugees are pouring across the border into Poland." tacitly implies that anything you put ordinary Russians through short of that is justified because the Ukrainians have it worse. That's not how anything works. If you want to stop global terrorism and imperialism, maybe pay more attention when your countries do more harm to more countries than Putin could hope to invade in a century. If you can pay attention to Ukraine, you can pay attention to Afghanistan, and Yemen, and Palestine, and the dozens of places currently being exploited by the West. At least in western countries, there's the pretense of democracy and the People can actually budge the political apparatus. Nothing like that exists in Russia.

Take it from a Russian. If you think that sanctioning ordinary people will influence them to turn on Putin, you've catastrophically miscalculated. Putin will point to the sanctions and say, "the west is to blame", and he'd be right. He instigated the war and is a war criminal, just like a great many world leaders. But no one forced the West to go balls to the wall and sanction everything Russian under the sun. Also, if you think the West isn't taking full advantage of this opportunity to weaken Russia through excessive sanctions at this moment, when you and millions like you are frothing at the mouth to punish all Russians, then you've no concept of how geopolitics works.

My comment was framed as a question, did you actually notice that?

As far as atrocities that can be chalked up to the US, that is "what about-ery" . Syria, Yemen and Afghanistan are all terribly distressing and as an EU citizen all I can do personally is donate as much as I can to help. You have no right to assume that I don't care about brown or black people.

But the issue on hand is Ukraine. For the first time since WW2 in Europe one sovereign country has invaded another with aggression and without provocation. Since the start it has prosecuted a criminal war, flattening cities and killing tens of thousands of civilians. And its military has committed atrocities of the most bestial type against occupied citizens, especially women and children.

These crimes are not the crimes of Putin. They are the crimes of Russia

Nope, that's not whataboutism. That's perspective. Afghanistan isn't just "terribly distressing". It's orders of magnitude worse than what's happening in Ukraine, and you lot can't be bothered to make a statement on in in between obsessive coverage of Ukraine and condemnation of every Russian under the sun.

Whataboutism is when you and people like you refuse to talk about atrocities committed by the West because "what about Ukraine?"

I'm fully capable of condemning both, and have on many occasions. Meanwhile, look at the apologetic language you're using with regard to western atrocities. "terribly distressing." 21 million people are starving in Afghanistan because the US withheld $7B in Afghan money to "punish" the Taliban. 1 million children could be dead at the end of the year if this continues, and that's not counting the hundreds of thousands to millions of adults who could share the same fate. Are a million Ukrainian children at risk of death? Millions have fled to neighbouring countries while Afghans have nowhere to go that will welcome them. Tens of billions in aid have flooded Ukraine while Afghanistan can't even get $7B of its own money back. All eyes and sympathies are on Ukraine while Afghans are left to die in obscurity, and when I bring your attention to it, all you can do is cry "whataboutism".

Also, who cares that for the first time since WWII one European country has attacked another? The rest of the world hasn't seen a moment's peace for centuries, and you're hyperfixating on one invasion because it happens to be in Europe? Maybe you should re-evaluate the weight you give to Human life, and separate it from the continent that life is on.

Also, remember this gem: "Until Putin withdraws from Ukraine, should Russian people be aloowed to participate in the porn industry in our countries?" Remember how you otherized all Russians on the basis of one man's invasion? I live in the US. I've lived here for nearly 22 years. Is it suddenly "your country" but no longer mine because I'm Russian and a lunatic half the world away invaded another country? You would never dream of asking this question if it were anyone else. Saudis, Israelis, Americans. Your mind would not go there in a hundred years, but when it's Russians, we're all guilty, aren't we?

Disgusting. And people like you marvel when you look back on Japanese internment during WWII. It's people like you who made it happen. People like you who couldn't see past national origin and judged a whole country of people to be guilty based on one thing.

One man's invasion? Are you serious?

puuma2004

Member

Registered: 02-05-22

Posts: 13

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

My comment was framed as a question, did you actually notice that?

As far as atrocities that can be chalked up to the US, that is "what about-ery" . Syria, Yemen and Afghanistan are all terribly distressing and as an EU citizen all I can do personally is donate as much as I can to help. You have no right to assume that I don't care about brown or black people.

But the issue on hand is Ukraine. For the first time since WW2 in Europe one sovereign country has invaded another with aggression and without provocation. Since the start it has prosecuted a criminal war, flattening cities and killing tens of thousands of civilians. And its military has committed atrocities of the most bestial type against occupied citizens, especially women and children.

These crimes are not the crimes of Putin. They are the crimes of Russia

Nope, that's not whataboutism. That's perspective. Afghanistan isn't just "terribly distressing". It's orders of magnitude worse than what's happening in Ukraine, and you lot can't be bothered to make a statement on in in between obsessive coverage of Ukraine and condemnation of every Russian under the sun.

Whataboutism is when you and people like you refuse to talk about atrocities committed by the West because "what about Ukraine?"

I'm fully capable of condemning both, and have on many occasions. Meanwhile, look at the apologetic language you're using with regard to western atrocities. "terribly distressing." 21 million people are starving in Afghanistan because the US withheld $7B in Afghan money to "punish" the Taliban. 1 million children could be dead at the end of the year if this continues, and that's not counting the hundreds of thousands to millions of adults who could share the same fate. Are a million Ukrainian children at risk of death? Millions have fled to neighbouring countries while Afghans have nowhere to go that will welcome them. Tens of billions in aid have flooded Ukraine while Afghanistan can't even get $7B of its own money back. All eyes and sympathies are on Ukraine while Afghans are left to die in obscurity, and when I bring your attention to it, all you can do is cry "whataboutism".

Also, who cares that for the first time since WWII one European country has attacked another? The rest of the world hasn't seen a moment's peace for centuries, and you're hyperfixating on one invasion because it happens to be in Europe? Maybe you should re-evaluate the weight you give to Human life, and separate it from the continent that life is on.

Also, remember this gem: "Until Putin withdraws from Ukraine, should Russian people be aloowed to participate in the porn industry in our countries?" Remember how you otherized all Russians on the basis of one man's invasion? I live in the US. I've lived here for nearly 22 years. Is it suddenly "your country" but no longer mine because I'm Russian and a lunatic half the world away invaded another country? You would never dream of asking this question if it were anyone else. Saudis, Israelis, Americans. Your mind would not go there in a hundred years, but when it's Russians, we're all guilty, aren't we?

Disgusting. And people like you marvel when you look back on Japanese internment during WWII. It's people like you who made it happen. People like you who couldn't see past national origin and judged a whole country of people to be guilty based on one thing.

One man's invasion? Are you serious?

Ya, this is Putin's war. Most Russians had no interest in this, and a lot back home don't even have a complete picture of what's going on.

Why are you running away from my other points? Is it uncomfortable for you to face up to the fact that you never cared about Brown people dying in large numbers, and can only bring yourself to care when it's blue-eyed, blonde, White people over in Europe? Your language is full of passive racism I've seen a hundred times over the years.

Hangdog90

Member

Registered: 24-01-16

Posts: 1,645

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

Nope, that's not whataboutism. That's perspective. Afghanistan isn't just "terribly distressing". It's orders of magnitude worse than what's happening in Ukraine, and you lot can't be bothered to make a statement on in in between obsessive coverage of Ukraine and condemnation of every Russian under the sun.

Whataboutism is when you and people like you refuse to talk about atrocities committed by the West because "what about Ukraine?"

I'm fully capable of condemning both, and have on many occasions. Meanwhile, look at the apologetic language you're using with regard to western atrocities. "terribly distressing." 21 million people are starving in Afghanistan because the US withheld $7B in Afghan money to "punish" the Taliban. 1 million children could be dead at the end of the year if this continues, and that's not counting the hundreds of thousands to millions of adults who could share the same fate. Are a million Ukrainian children at risk of death? Millions have fled to neighbouring countries while Afghans have nowhere to go that will welcome them. Tens of billions in aid have flooded Ukraine while Afghanistan can't even get $7B of its own money back. All eyes and sympathies are on Ukraine while Afghans are left to die in obscurity, and when I bring your attention to it, all you can do is cry "whataboutism".

Also, who cares that for the first time since WWII one European country has attacked another? The rest of the world hasn't seen a moment's peace for centuries, and you're hyperfixating on one invasion because it happens to be in Europe? Maybe you should re-evaluate the weight you give to Human life, and separate it from the continent that life is on.

Also, remember this gem: "Until Putin withdraws from Ukraine, should Russian people be aloowed to participate in the porn industry in our countries?" Remember how you otherized all Russians on the basis of one man's invasion? I live in the US. I've lived here for nearly 22 years. Is it suddenly "your country" but no longer mine because I'm Russian and a lunatic half the world away invaded another country? You would never dream of asking this question if it were anyone else. Saudis, Israelis, Americans. Your mind would not go there in a hundred years, but when it's Russians, we're all guilty, aren't we?

Disgusting. And people like you marvel when you look back on Japanese internment during WWII. It's people like you who made it happen. People like you who couldn't see past national origin and judged a whole country of people to be guilty based on one thing.

One man's invasion? Are you serious?

Ya, this is Putin's war. Most Russians had no interest in this, and a lot back home don't even have a complete picture of what's going on.

Why are you running away from my other points? Is it uncomfortable for you to face up to the fact that you never cared about Brown people dying in large numbers, and can only bring yourself to care when it's blue-eyed, blonde, White people over in Europe? Your language is full of passive racism I've seen a hundred times over the years.

I didn't run away from your other points. You simply dismissed  what I said about that and minimalised it, so it's clear you are keen to use it as a deflection tactic.

You make many good points about what tactics are likely to be effective in the situation. But don't tell me Putin lacks considerabke support in Russia, and there are many who see Ukraine as not having a right to a separate existence.

Syria and Yemen and Afghanistan are internal conflicts where external strategic actors play huge parts. This happened in World War 1 when Belgium ended up becoming a theatre of war. It happened in Lebanon in the 1970s.

Ukraine is a different situation. Russia was party to an international treaty recognising and accepting its existence as a sovereign state. Russia started to renege on this after the Ukrainian people decided to face more towards the EU than Russia. Since then Russia fomented years of conflict in the Donbass and more recently annexed Crimea. Putin got away with that and was emboldened.

But now with this invasion he miscalculated. Faced with aggression, Ukraine has asked the rest of the world for help and galvanised a divided West. All this has happened because of Russian aggression and has been facilitated by the war crimes we are seeing every day. I'm not hearing too much shame on your part about that. It is not so easy to cover up the crimes of the Russian army in Ukraine as it was in Syria.

Last edited by Hangdog90 (06-05-22 00:42:33)

puuma2004

Member

Registered: 02-05-22

Posts: 13

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

One man's invasion? Are you serious?

Ya, this is Putin's war. Most Russians had no interest in this, and a lot back home don't even have a complete picture of what's going on.

Why are you running away from my other points? Is it uncomfortable for you to face up to the fact that you never cared about Brown people dying in large numbers, and can only bring yourself to care when it's blue-eyed, blonde, White people over in Europe? Your language is full of passive racism I've seen a hundred times over the years.

I didn't run away from your other points. You simply dismissed  what I said about that and minimalised it, so it's clear you are keen to use it as a deflection tactic.

You make many good points about what tactics are likely to be effective in the situation. But don't tell me Putin lacks considerabke support in Russia, and there are many who see Ukraine as not having a right to a separate existence.

Syria and Yemen and Afghanistan are internal conflicts where external strategic actors play huge parts. This happened in World War 1 when Belgium ended up becoming a theatre of war. It happened in Lebanon in the 1970s.

Ukraine is a different situation. Russia was party to an international treaty recognising and accepting its existence as a sovereign state. Ukraine has asked the rest of the world for help and galvanised a divided West. All this has happened because of Russian aggression and has been facilitated by the war crimes we are seeing every day. I'm not hearing too much shame on your part about that.

What have I got to be ashamed of? I didn't invade Ukraine. I haven't killed anyone. I don't support Putin. What on earth is my complicity in this conflict?

See, you still keep excusing Western atrocities. You can't bring yourself to acknowledge that what the west has done the world over and continues to do to this day is far worse than anything Putin has done in Ukraine. You find some flimsy excuse to refocus on Ukraine and just ignore the rest, so I put it to you again. Why is it ok for you to suggest banning Russian contributors because of Putin's actions in Ukraine, but not American contributors because of America's actions in Afghanistan, *which are worse*? Every American has, at one time or another, supported the president, and every American president is a war criminal. By your "logic", every American is guilty and should be held accountable by the transitive property.

My focus during this discussion has been you singling out Russian people as though Russia has done something uniquely bad. The points I have made were in support of the indisputable fact that Russia is not, and never has been, the greatest evil on the map. Your only response to that was to split hairs on what's a war and what's "an internal conflict where external strategic actors play huge parts."

You're simply incapable of applying your own standards to other countries. It's just "Russia is the worst" and that's the end of the line for your thought process. Again, disgusting that you would pile this onto ordinary Russians who have nothing to do with this. Show some consistency if you claim to care about countries where people are darker than Ukrainians.

Hangdog90

Member

Registered: 24-01-16

Posts: 1,645

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

Ya, this is Putin's war. Most Russians had no interest in this, and a lot back home don't even have a complete picture of what's going on.

Why are you running away from my other points? Is it uncomfortable for you to face up to the fact that you never cared about Brown people dying in large numbers, and can only bring yourself to care when it's blue-eyed, blonde, White people over in Europe? Your language is full of passive racism I've seen a hundred times over the years.

I didn't run away from your other points. You simply dismissed  what I said about that and minimalised it, so it's clear you are keen to use it as a deflection tactic.

You make many good points about what tactics are likely to be effective in the situation. But don't tell me Putin lacks considerabke support in Russia, and there are many who see Ukraine as not having a right to a separate existence.

Syria and Yemen and Afghanistan are internal conflicts where external strategic actors play huge parts. This happened in World War 1 when Belgium ended up becoming a theatre of war. It happened in Lebanon in the 1970s.

Ukraine is a different situation. Russia was party to an international treaty recognising and accepting its existence as a sovereign state. Ukraine has asked the rest of the world for help and galvanised a divided West. All this has happened because of Russian aggression and has been facilitated by the war crimes we are seeing every day. I'm not hearing too much shame on your part about that.

What have I got to be ashamed of? I didn't invade Ukraine. I haven't killed anyone. I don't support Putin. What on earth is my complicity in this conflict?

See, you still keep excusing Western atrocities. You can't bring yourself to acknowledge that what the west has done the world over and continues to do to this day is far worse than anything Putin has done in Ukraine. You find some flimsy excuse to refocus on Ukraine and just ignore the rest, so I put it to you again. Why is it ok for you to suggest banning Russian contributors because of Putin's actions in Ukraine, but not American contributors because of America's actions in Afghanistan, *which are worse*? Every American has, at one time or another, supported the president, and every American president is a war criminal. By your "logic", every American is guilty and should be held accountable by the transitive property.

My focus during this discussion has been you singling out Russian people as though Russia has done something uniquely bad. The points I have made were in support of the indisputable fact that Russia is not, and never has been, the greatest evil on the map. Your only response to that was to split hairs on what's a war and what's "an internal conflict where external strategic actors play huge parts."

You're simply incapable of applying your own standards to other countries. It's just "Russia is the worst" and that's the end of the line for your thought process. Again, disgusting that you would pile this onto ordinary Russians who have nothing to do with this. Show some consistency if you claim to care about countries where people are darker than Ukrainians.

The Russian Army is surely full of ordinary Russians. Is it not?

Making the differential between Ukraine and the other situations is not splitting hairs. When there are internal wars, the situation is entirely different in terms of intervention.

If you want to speak on purely moral terms, and leave out politics, I don't believe that force and might are right. I would rather a peaceful existence but the world is not like that.

When IRA bombings in London killed people or destroyed lives almost every week in the early 80s, but on a small scale, as an Irish person living in London I did feel ashamed that this was being done in my name. I didn't say that out loud though, because in all likelihood people would think I was protesting too much. So I just stayed quiet and despised the IRA for killing innocent civilians to advance a conflict. That's how I felt. So if I were Russian right now I would be ashamed of what is happening in my name in Ukraine.

puuma2004

Member

Registered: 02-05-22

Posts: 13

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

I didn't run away from your other points. You simply dismissed  what I said about that and minimalised it, so it's clear you are keen to use it as a deflection tactic.

You make many good points about what tactics are likely to be effective in the situation. But don't tell me Putin lacks considerabke support in Russia, and there are many who see Ukraine as not having a right to a separate existence.

Syria and Yemen and Afghanistan are internal conflicts where external strategic actors play huge parts. This happened in World War 1 when Belgium ended up becoming a theatre of war. It happened in Lebanon in the 1970s.

Ukraine is a different situation. Russia was party to an international treaty recognising and accepting its existence as a sovereign state. Ukraine has asked the rest of the world for help and galvanised a divided West. All this has happened because of Russian aggression and has been facilitated by the war crimes we are seeing every day. I'm not hearing too much shame on your part about that.

What have I got to be ashamed of? I didn't invade Ukraine. I haven't killed anyone. I don't support Putin. What on earth is my complicity in this conflict?

See, you still keep excusing Western atrocities. You can't bring yourself to acknowledge that what the west has done the world over and continues to do to this day is far worse than anything Putin has done in Ukraine. You find some flimsy excuse to refocus on Ukraine and just ignore the rest, so I put it to you again. Why is it ok for you to suggest banning Russian contributors because of Putin's actions in Ukraine, but not American contributors because of America's actions in Afghanistan, *which are worse*? Every American has, at one time or another, supported the president, and every American president is a war criminal. By your "logic", every American is guilty and should be held accountable by the transitive property.

My focus during this discussion has been you singling out Russian people as though Russia has done something uniquely bad. The points I have made were in support of the indisputable fact that Russia is not, and never has been, the greatest evil on the map. Your only response to that was to split hairs on what's a war and what's "an internal conflict where external strategic actors play huge parts."

You're simply incapable of applying your own standards to other countries. It's just "Russia is the worst" and that's the end of the line for your thought process. Again, disgusting that you would pile this onto ordinary Russians who have nothing to do with this. Show some consistency if you claim to care about countries where people are darker than Ukrainians.

The Russian Army is surely full of ordinary Russians. Is it not?

Making the differential between Ukraine and the other situations is not splitting hairs. When there are internal wars, the situation is entirely different in terms of intervention.

If you want to speak on purely moral terms, and leave out politics, I don't believe that force and might are right. I would rather a peaceful existence but the world is not like that.

When IRA bombings in London killed people or destroyed lives almost every week in the early 80s, but on a small scale, as an Irish person living in London I did feel ashamed that this was being done in my name. I didn't say that out loud though, because in all likelihood people would think I was protesting too much. So I just stayed quiet and despised the IRA for killing innocent civilians to advance a conflict. That's how I felt. So if I were Russian right now I would be ashamed of what is happening in my name in Ukraine.

First, the important bit. I'm not happy with what's happening. I don't like war, and I don't like that Russia is doing what it's doing in Ukraine. I've never regarded Ukraine or Ukrainians negatively, and, given its role on the world stage, I kind of feel like this is a very American thing to do, and beneath every other country, even though plenty of countries do bad things, and not just America.

As for shame, any shame I felt at the start was quickly dispelled by the shame Westerners felt it's appropriate to heap on me and other Russians all over the world, regardless of our views on the war or complicity in it. The shame and disgust was mine to feel, not yours to assign.

As for Russian soldiers, no. No soldier is an ordinary citizen because all soldiers, on some level, are conditioned to follow orders and desensitized to the horrors of war. Even with that in mind, a number of Russian soldiers have deserted, and a number of Russians have gone to fight in defense of Ukraine. Again, this is the part where I ask you how Russian soldiers are any different than American soldiers or British soldiers or any country's soldiers. American soldiers rape, pillage, and mass murder every bit as much as Russian soldiers. It's what soldiers often do in war. They're not supposed to, and it's egregious even beyond war itself, but make no mistake that these war crimes are nothing new. Russia didn't invent war crimes in Ukraine in 2022.

As for internal situations vs invasions, you're not even correct there. Afghanistan was not an internal situation, Iraq was not an internal situation. Libya was not an internal situation. The US just invaded them without provocation and made things vastly worse at the cost of millions of lives. This is no different than Russia's invasion of Ukraine, except the US has done more of these invasions and killed more people. You could argue that Yemen is an internal conflict where Saudi Arabia is conducting a genocide from without while the US supplies arms, but you've still got a genocide on your hands. What Saudi Arabia is doing in Yemen with US help is morally darker than what Russia is doing in Ukraine, even if the nature of the conflict is slightly different. The current famine in Afghanistan is also an external matter because it's caused largely by US sanctions on Afghan money, so the instigator is external. This is also morally darker than the invasion of Ukraine.

So let me ask you this. You asked if we should ban Russian content creators because of the war in Ukraine. Would you support banning American creators because of the wars America is still involved in, as well as its support of the Yemeni genocide, and its execution of the Afghan famine? Would you support banning Israeli creators because of Israel's decades-long conquest and subjugation of Palestine? Would you support banning French creators because of France's continued neocolonial empire in Africa?

Last edited by puuma2004 (06-05-22 01:31:07)

Hangdog90

Member

Registered: 24-01-16

Posts: 1,645

Re: Russia invades Ukraine : how do we respond?

What have I got to be ashamed of? I didn't invade Ukraine. I haven't killed anyone. I don't support Putin. What on earth is my complicity in this conflict?

See, you still keep excusing Western atrocities. You can't bring yourself to acknowledge that what the west has done the world over and continues to do to this day is far worse than anything Putin has done in Ukraine. You find some flimsy excuse to refocus on Ukraine and just ignore the rest, so I put it to you again. Why is it ok for you to suggest banning Russian contributors because of Putin's actions in Ukraine, but not American contributors because of America's actions in Afghanistan, *which are worse*? Every American has, at one time or another, supported the president, and every American president is a war criminal. By your "logic", every American is guilty and should be held accountable by the transitive property.

My focus during this discussion has been you singling out Russian people as though Russia has done something uniquely bad. The points I have made were in support of the indisputable fact that Russia is not, and never has been, the greatest evil on the map. Your only response to that was to split hairs on what's a war and what's "an internal conflict where external strategic actors play huge parts."

You're simply incapable of applying your own standards to other countries. It's just "Russia is the worst" and that's the end of the line for your thought process. Again, disgusting that you would pile this onto ordinary Russians who have nothing to do with this. Show some consistency if you claim to care about countries where people are darker than Ukrainians.

The Russian Army is surely full of ordinary Russians. Is it not?

Making the differential between Ukraine and the other situations is not splitting hairs. When there are internal wars, the situation is entirely different in terms of intervention.

If you want to speak on purely moral terms, and leave out politics, I don't believe that force and might are right. I would rather a peaceful existence but the world is not like that.

When IRA bombings in London killed people or destroyed lives almost every week in the early 80s, but on a small scale, as an Irish person living in London I did feel ashamed that this was being done in my name. I didn't say that out loud though, because in all likelihood people would think I was protesting too much. So I just stayed quiet and despised the IRA for killing innocent civilians to advance a conflict. That's how I felt. So if I were Russian right now I would be ashamed of what is happening in my name in Ukraine.

First, the important bit. I'm not happy with what's happening. I don't like war, and I don't like that Russia is doing what it's doing in Ukraine. I've never regarded Ukraine or Ukrainians negatively, and, given its role on the world stage, I kind of feel like this is a very American thing to do, and beneath every other country, even though plenty of countries do bad things, and not just America.

As for shame, any shame I felt at the start was quickly dispelled by the shame Westerners felt it's appropriate to heap on me and other Russians all over the world, regardless of our views on the war or complicity in it. The shame and disgust was mine to feel, not yours to assign.

As for Russian soldiers, no. No soldier is an ordinary citizen because all soldiers, on some level, are conditioned to follow orders and desensitized to the horrors of war. Even with that in mind, a number of Russian soldiers have deserted, and a number of Russians have gone to fight in defense of Ukraine. Again, this is the part where I ask you how Russian soldiers are any different than American soldiers or British soldiers or any country's soldiers. American soldiers rape, pillage, and mass murder every bit as much as Russian soldiers. It's what soldiers often do in war. They're not supposed to, and it's egregious even beyond war itself, but make no mistake that these war crimes are nothing new. Russia didn't invent war crimes in Ukraine in 2022.

As for internal situations vs invasions, you're not even correct there. Afghanistan was not an internal situation, Iraq was not an internal situation. Libya was not an internal situation. The US just invaded them without provocation and made things vastly worse at the cost of millions of lives. This is no different than Russia's invasion of Ukraine, except the US has done more of these invasions and killed more people. You could argue that Yemen is an internal conflict where Saudi Arabia is conducting a genocide from without while the US supplies arms, but you've still got a genocide on your hands. What Saudi Arabia is doing in Yemen with US help is morally darker than what Russia is doing in Ukraine, even if the nature of the conflict is slightly different. The current famine in Afghanistan is also an external matter because it's caused largely by US sanctions on Afghan money, so the instigator is external. This is also morally darker than the invasion of Ukraine.

So let me ask you this. You asked if we should ban Russian content creators because of the war in Ukraine. Would you support banning American creators because of the wars America is still involved in, as well as its support of the Yemeni genocide, and its execution of the Afghan famine? Would you support banning Israeli creators because of Israel's decades-long conquest and subjugation of Palestine? Would you support banning French creators because of France's continued neocolonial empire in Africa?

We can go back to zero in history and have to boycott everything. As you said before, the point of a boycott is to bring about change, not to feel better about yourself.

You may have noticed that after the initial discussion, I did not continue to press the point as there was no agreement here, and it's a fair point that boycotting individual performers does nothing useful, only punishes some individuals who are not in power. I only posted in response to your message because you nettled me. I realise now that you have only just returned to the site after some time, so no doubt you were reading back through forums and responded. You will see that was the first post in several weeks.

I already participate in boycotting Israeli goods because of illegal settlements in Palestine. It is one small thing I can do.

I have not travelled to the US since Trump was elected because I am. Dismayed by what the country has become. I used to live there, 25 years ago. It has been hollowed out by the rich. Putin once told Biden, during the Obama presidency, that the US was already an oligarchy. Biden was angry about that, but it is true and getting moreso every year.

I'm directly impacted by the Ukrainian invasion because I have business associates and friends there, and because we are accepting refugees. I have a hokiday home that I have given to the Red Cross for a Ukrainian family of a mother and 3 kids. That's what I can do. I am depressed and angry every time I see the atrocities, that with all our technology, we are so stupid as a species.