consent metaphors

viva · 19-04-21 07:04:35

We have never really discussed consent around here and I think it's a very interesting topic. I'm spurred to think about it because I saw a video today released by our very weird Australian government that is ostensibly designed to educate about consent, but instead makes everyone just feel confused, uncomfortable and bad.

Here's that video (scroll down to play):

https://www.thegoodsociety.gov.au/playl … g-the-line

And here's the much better video I think? maybe? it was trying to emulate?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8

The first video is so confusing and just honestly fucked. Like I don't even know what this video is TRYING to teach. And while I'm all about having serious discussions about male victimisation, there's no denying that when we are talking about sexual assault and consent, it's overwhelmingly more frequently men who are pushing women than the other way around - so why the flipped script here? Does it avoid the discomfort of seeing a women pressured, even in a weird milkshake scenario? Does it make men feel seen and therefore more likely to empathise?

The second video is good and I love it. It's really useful to start a conversation - but in my opinion, it's really not enough to show a boy this video, and then he understands how to navigate the ultra confusing territory that is ... SEX. I didn't learn how to say "I don't want a cup of tea" until my late 20s. I didn't even know if I wanted tea or not until then - I just wanted boys to like me, and I'd do anything to make that happen. Even when I do actively want sex now, I don't always want to display enthusiastic consent. Sometimes I need time to get into it - and if my partner just stops, that's not really what the situation calls for, either. I need him to seduce me, and that means I need time to ... be unsure or not ready, and then be ready. Be seduced.

Real life is complicated and nuanced, but public opinion is black and white. The risk of "allowing" date rape to happen, even in shades of grey, is so frightening and unacceptable, we pretend consent is not complicated, so we can blanket ban certain actions. But I think negotiating sex is complicated, a lot more complicated than a cup of tea. I think it really, really is.

What do you think?

privignus · 19-04-21 21:38:30

I think it is especially social media which wants things to be black and white. There is just not room for nuance in a meme or a tweet! Things get shared out of their original context (context collapse) and people try to demand that strangers in other communities follow their rules. There are some loud people with lots of time for social media who try to create the illusion of consensus, like columnists and TV talking heads used to.

I think that consent thinking is much more than just an ethic for sex, and that Anglo cultures are profoundly non-consensual. Those are big scary ideas so people dance around the edges.

I also have that experience of not knowing what I really want, and needing to try different things and be playful. A lot of Americans who like to give unsolicited advice to strangers tell them to know what they want and express it clearly, but you need to have tried different things with different people before you can know that! And sometimes what you like changes as you age, or is different with different people.

Edit: but "you'll like it once you get into it" is a classic technique of manipulative people! So this is too nuanced for social media.

Last edited by privignus (19-04-21 22:25:54)

MS2020 · 19-04-21 23:57:31

I think the first video is a classic example of one my favorite forms of unintended hilarity: Clueless Aesops https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ … elessAesop

They've been around for a long time and I can't think of many classic examples. So I can't just blame social media. Explaining complex facts of life to the uninitiated can't be easy. Especially with young people. It's also hard to cram nuance into a short video or comic strip.

I agree the second video (which I'd actually seen before with less adult language) does a much bother job of laying out the consent concept, it still serves as more of a start for life lessons than a finish. Even the best examples of social guidance, PSA, ephemeral films or whatever you want to call them can only do so much to prepare young people for the real deal and really should come with a Q & A session.

Last edited by MS2020 (19-04-21 23:59:38)

viva · 20-04-21 00:50:20

Do you guys find the concept of consent complex in your own dealings with women? I have heard from men that it was confusing and scary because in the past, women have been mad at them or disappointed or critical of them for not being more "dominant" or "in control". Certainly in a sexual way, that is what I want from men - for them to take control, for me to be able to let go - even if intellectually I know consent is vital. Since we are not children and not in an education situation right now, maybe we could discuss the more complex issues and experiences of consent.

What I'm wondering is, is it realistic for boys always to expect enthusiastic consent from girls in adolescent sex? Is that your experience?

privignus · 20-04-21 17:50:27

viva, I first had some naked fun with a lady when I was 30. I think two of my friends had a relationship when I was an undergrad and they did not talk about it much. So I am not qualified to talk about partner-sex as an adolescent.

I agree that sometimes people want someone else to take the initiative or pretend to be unwilling. Some people would say "because patriarchy" but people have to live with the cultural conditioning they have! And then there are people who like to be woken up with their partner's lips between their legs. One reason I am so tired of Americans who give unsolicited advice to strangers is that often they are battling against demons that my culture and subculture does not have.

viva · 21-04-21 00:34:26

Haha Priv, on behalf of all Americans, I'm sorry for our egocentric ways!

I especially feel @'d by "A lot of Americans who like to give unsolicited advice to strangers tell them to know what they want and express it clearly" - this is literally me w my boyfriend all the time, lol. I NEED TO KNOW WHAT YOU WANT AND I NEED YOU TO EXPRESS IT CLEARLY!!

MS2020 · 21-04-21 03:44:31

I'm almost 40 now and I still haven't had so much as a make out session. Let alone been naked with a women. Which gets more frustrating to think about every week.

Of course different people want different things, but any talk of wanting a man that's dominating is just one more thing for me to worry about "when a right time comes." Because I don't being dominated and don't like trying to dominate people. I want to establish feelings of security that take to time. I need to feel open and at ease with another person before I can really let go. So I'd want to someone to be as open about they can about their desires and comfort levels. Because that's when I know I can be just as candid with them.

I don't know if that's expecting too much. There can be a time when I take the lead in any activity, but if comes with a partner (any kind of partner) I want to know first that they trust me. I couldn't just "take a chance" with another person because it SEEMS promising. I'd need them to show they're up for doing something with me. If not spell it out, at least give me a sign we'd both recognize.

Last edited by MS2020 (21-04-21 18:12:41)

viva · 21-04-21 04:43:53

Now that I'm in my 30s, I am much more capable of "establishing feelings of security that take time". And now, it's what I want, too. So don't despair MS, in our age range a lot of the scary adolescent consent stuff has changed, as we are older, more aware of ourselves and others, more clear about our boundaries and more confident about going slow. I mean don't get me wrong there are still people in their 30s and 40s and beyond who haven't worked this stuff out, but ... I'd say its definitely better.

But I would be lying if I said that was the case when I was younger, and I know that for many young men and women, consent is not a black and white thing. Many girls want to be pursued, convinced, "just kissed" - IF they like the guy, or want the guy to like them - without confusing or complicated or awkward conversations about it. Maybe it's less now than before, but... I definitely wouldn't assume so. I would think maybe it's getting better and better, but I wouldnt think young girls are just super empowered about sexuality, or great at boundaries, now across the board. And media messaging still has confident, hot guys "making moves", so when you see that, it gets in your mind.

I think even while receiving black/white consent messaging, what happens in bedrooms and backseats of cars is still very, very grey. And I think that can be scary for young women, and also for young men - because these ads and educational programs say the rules are clear, but when it comes down to it, they definitely are not. I don't know. My feeling is just that a program or ad that acknowledged what sex can actually be like for adolescent people, and then gave ideas for ways it could actually change, would be more useful?

MS2020 · 21-04-21 18:37:49

"Many girls want to be pursued, convinced, "just kissed" - IF they like the guy, or want the guy to like them - without confusing or complicated or awkward conversations about it. Maybe it's less now than before, but... I definitely wouldn't assume so. I would think maybe it's getting better and better, but I wouldnt think young girls are just super empowered about sexuality, or great at boundaries, now across the board. And media messaging still has confident, hot guys "making moves", so when you see that, it gets in your mind."

That's very interesting. Because I actually would imagine this would has change somewhat over time.

The ways in which teenage life has been portrayed in popular culture and what expectations have changed over time (and what hasn't) is fascinating to me. While it's true that guys are still usual depicted as the ones taking initiative, a girl making the first move or saying what she wants as rarely treated as strange as it used to be. See countless movies, book, tv show, comics and so forth from the postwar era (late 40s through early 60s) to see what I mean.

Though I suppose girls are still more likely to fear being branded sluts or worse if they actually admit to even wanting to be kissed, let alone that they want to kiss him first. And you're probably right that young girls are not "super empowered" in general. In fact it's probably not realistic to expect anyone to be that empowered at when you're still figure yourself out as a person.

Last edited by MS2020 (21-04-21 18:40:57)

MS2020 · 21-04-21 18:47:22

Here's a pretty good example of an early girl group number the defined sex-pectations for girls:
Give Him a Great Big Kiss-The Shangi Las
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-NhojnwMh8

The Shangri Las were know for singing about bad boys and those risking a bad girl image. Often with conversation mixed in with the singing. Notice how so much of this is about describing his appearance. That he's referred to as (good-bad, but not evil). And of course the title strongly declares that she's not about wanting around to get some. She puts the move on him. Very bold for their time.

Last edited by MS2020 (21-04-21 18:51:52)

viva · 22-04-21 00:47:22

I don't know I can't speak to now-now but the trend seems to be kind of for girls to be really forward, really kind of ballsy and raunchy and sexual, which tbh I think only makes things more confusing/dangerous for both boys and girls. If girls are acting that way because it's cool, expected and modelled, it doesn't mean they're not actually scared of real sex. They could have a privately non-consensual experience while consenting enthusiastically. And if boys think they have to take sex when they can get it, cause they're taught real men always want sex, both parties could end up hurt and confused - having a sexual experience neither one really wants, just because it feels expected of them.

I felt pressure to be a "cool, not-like-the-other girls" girl, had a broken home, read too many male authors and had poor female role models - I was very forward and demanding of sex before I knew what sex even properly was (I knew in a way intellectually, but I didn't really understand what it could do to me). I am and was a high-libido sexual person, but on top of that, I desperately wanted boys to like me and I thought being bold and sexual was the way to do it. and now I think of the man who took my virginity as being really irresponsible with me.. despite my showing up to his hotel room and definitely letting/half encouraging him to do it. He was 35 though and I was barely 17 so I guess there's a reason statutory laws exist.

I'm definitely not saying there aren't any young women who know themselves, are feeling themselves, have great boundaries and just want to have lots of enjoyable sex. I'm sure there are and that is so awesome. But teenager/early 20's-dom is a weird time, and more often than not, the peak of insecurity for most of us. So I'm not sure every girl who writes DTF on Tinder is, actually, DTF.

MS2020 · 22-04-21 03:18:19

viva wrote:

I'm definitely not saying there aren't any young women who know themselves, are feeling themselves, have great boundaries and just want to have lots of enjoyable sex. I'm sure there are and that is so awesome. But teenager/early 20's-dom is a weird time, and more often than not, the peak of insecurity for most of us. So I'm not sure every girl who writes DTF on Tinder is, actually, DTF.

True that. I don't really think Rizzo know herself that much better than Sandy. Oh the things I could say about Grease and cultural norms change while these same problems of communication, sex, and identity remain.

Sorry I keep bringing this back to popular culture. That's just where my brain is at with this stuff. I hear and read a lot more about what went on behind closed doors at that age than I ever experienced. I do appreciate your candor about your own experiences. I just hadn't expected this to suddenly get so heavy.

One thing I think we could all benefit from is learning to be honest about our own vulnerability. When can actually find more strength in recognizing what we struggle at. Of course girls and boys (as well as too many men and women) don't what to do that. Because we don't want to risk appearing weak. That kind of pride is maybe the biggest weakness of all.

viva · 22-04-21 05:19:17

I think discussions of consent are inherently heavy because of the stakes. The whole reason we talk about, and need to talk about consent, is because violation happens. And violation is pretty much the heaviest topic there is I think the reality is that while we say the lines of consent should and can be crystal clear, in the moment I just think they're often not clear at all. I just think the complexities are worth talking about, because otherwise I'm not sure we're really teaching anything THAT useful. If boys think girls want them to "make a move", and if some girls really do want and reinforce that idea, it won't matter what you teach in the classroom. They will try to do what they think girls want from them, what they think will make them successful with girls. And if later they're called out for violating a girl's consent... I don't know. I'm not a guy who's had the experience of getting those mixed messages about consent vs expectations of masculinity - I don't know what that's like. I just have been the girl on the other side of things.

I'm just saying, it would be cool if we could develop a way of talking about consent that addresses the reality that lots of girls do prefer guys to "make a move" and might find it awkward and weird or unsexy if he asks politely first. If we can address that honestly, it may be a better/more honest starting point when it comes to teaching about how to shift that dynamic.

MS2020 · 22-04-21 17:46:34

viva wrote:

I'm just saying, it would be cool if we could develop a way of talking about consent that addresses the reality that lots of girls do prefer guys to "make a move" and might find it awkward and weird or unsexy if he asks politely first. If we can address that honestly, it may be a better/more honest starting point when it comes to teaching about how to shift that dynamic.

Could you see a young couple agreeing to unspoken signals that each of them understands? I think some unspoken communication can be find if it's allowed to go both ways. Guys shouldn't jump on what they assume are the right "singles" and them blame the girl for saying they never wanted it afterwards. I realize some forms of flirting and other subtle interactions can easily be misunderstood, but it's not something that justifies overpowering anyone who doesn't want to get swiped up in a moment. In you DO want to be swiped off you feel and finding it sexier if they make the move, then there should be some way of letting him know that you mutually recognize. At least that's what I think.

I wonder how these issues of expectation and consent might be differently for same sex couples?

Thanks for keeping this important conversation going Viva.

viva · 23-04-21 00:59:02

That could be a good angle.. like sex ed including a module on signals in general, and letting teens and young adults talk about and acknowledge subtle signals exist and how to navigate them.

MS2020 · 23-04-21 02:48:28

Glad you liked my suggestion.

Now what do you think of The Shangri Las song?

Ahead of it's time empowered anthem or hopeless naive fantasy of trusting bad boys?

Last edited by MS2020 (23-04-21 02:49:57)

viva · 23-04-21 03:08:40

Umm haha it doesn't seem like very empowering... that guy seems like kind of a dick. But he's not really bad, just good-bad, not evil.

privignus · 23-04-21 04:18:23

this is touching on some deep stuff and I am glad we can have this conversation! I have a job interview and some other deadlines so I can't give these the thought they deserve.

I find that people on the Internet and in old media are often passing on stereotypes about men or women which don't match my experience, or they are rebutting stereotypes I never encountered live and fighting demons that are not my demons. Many people have wounds from patriarchial religion, but nobody in my family has been religious since one set of grandparents. I have made some mistakes around consent such as putting a finger joint inside someone who wanted all the feeling up outside her, and not understanding someone's first hint that they did not want to be hit on. But I have a tendency to overanalyze and let myself be defeated by hypotheticals, and now that I am in my 30s, its time to find a way of dating that makes sense for me. I will make more mistakes, but the only way not to miscommunicate is to become a hermit.

Last edited by privignus (23-04-21 04:19:03)

MS2020 · 23-04-21 05:14:26

viva wrote:

Umm haha it doesn't seem like very empowering... that guy seems like kind of a dick. But he's not really bad, just good-bad, not evil.

Haha yeah I was trying to be a little tongue-in-check with my wording. It's just funny to me that so many people argued around songs from a girls point of about sex and relationships being good or bad for them. When most of the time, they're just telling stories same as the guys. Most of the time the message (if you want to find one) is vague. That I heard so many people in my adolescence arguing about the effects of all the Brittny's on there listeners, but so rarely heard the same tension about the boy bands just says to me how much more hung up with about girls sexuality than boys (and still are).

Last edited by MS2020 (23-04-21 16:53:15)

viva · 23-04-21 05:38:37

Yeah our society is obsessed with female feelings, sexuality, looks, and sparkle and male bank accounts, violence, physical prowess and status. It basically sucks for fucking everyone.

privignus · 23-04-21 21:06:13

viva wrote:

That could be a good angle.. like sex ed including a module on signals in general, and letting teens and young adults talk about and acknowledge subtle signals exist and how to navigate them.

and also talking about how to seek partners if you are not an extrovert or have privacy concerns about corporate social media. A lot of talk about relationships on the Internet is like the "don't have sex or you will get aids and syphilis and pregnant" kind of 'sex ed' or the 'this machine will tear off your ears and fingers and leave you a wreck if you stare at it funny' kind of shop class. It is meant to stop people taking advantage of other people, but it can leave empathetic people paralyzed. The feministy end of the advice-to-strangers world is often better at telling men what not to do than helping men be attractive but respectful. Weird ideas like "don't make advances in hobby spaces" are aimed at agresssive Lotharios, but they can leave people who don't like loud drunken parties and don't want to put intimate things on the corporate Internet confused. Often, the reason people try a social hobby is to meet sexy people!

MS2020 · 23-04-21 23:57:52

I'd like to share other videos I've found over the years with various and often very strange attempts at sex education to and exchange thoughts. But I'm wonder if that's beyond the reach of the basic consent question and should be saved for a new discussion.

Last edited by MS2020 (23-04-21 23:59:01)

#1 19-04-21 07:04:35

consent metaphors

#2 19-04-21 21:38:30

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