A Plea for Eros

eros62 · 07-01-07 00:49:55

This is actually the title of an essay by a wonderful writer named Siri Hustvedt. Let me quote briefly:

Familiarity and the pedestrian realities of everyday life are the enemies of eros. Emma Bovary watches her husband eat and is disgusted... A friend of mine told me about evenings out with her husband, during which they seduce each other all over again and she can't wait to get home and jump on his beautiful body; but if on the way into the house he pauses to straighten the lids on the garbage cans, the spell is broken. She told him, and he now resists this urge.

I'm curious about any of your experiences that relate to this topic. A female friend of mine is fairly adamant about not moving in with a lover, always keeping her own place, in order to keep the mystery alive. Of course, if companionship is key, eros may not be as important. But for those for whom it is, any suggestions or stories? You IFM members are generally a thoughtful, creative, insightful, and sexual bunch, so I have high expectations!

annoula · 07-01-07 01:16:15

I am just reading this book!!!!

Anyway,

I have strong but conflicting views on this matter...Sorry if i will not be too eloquent.

I have lived alone, been married, lived alone, lived at my boyfriend's and now we are living at my place most of the days.

After 8 years in this relationship, i dread the day we will eventually -soon- have but 1 house.
I love him to bits, but space and mystery are 2 elements i need to sustain a healthy relationship...

So it doesn't sound good

Another thought though,
is that working hard at it, keeping the element of suprise (had an encounter in the hallway today) and not letting the boyfriend watch you bleach the moustache (i don't have one, you can't see it anyway...) might help keep things alive and kicking.

My ex never closed the toilet door and at first i thought that was funny...

Let's just say, my current love never let's me in the door, even when shaving, and i am hooked.
Even if i have seen everything up close and personal when intimate, i see it in an erotic context and that is programmed into my brain.

So the familiarity and trust of a lasting liason with a dash of mystery does it for me.

My humble opinion and experience.

Last edited by annoula (07-01-07 01:17:22)

eros62 · 07-01-07 18:56:13

annoula wrote:

I am just reading this book!!!!

Great minds think alike? That is so cool you're reading it, too!

annoula wrote:

After 8 years in this relationship, i dread the day we will eventually -soon- have but 1 house.
I love him to bits, but space and mystery are 2 elements i need to sustain a healthy relationship...

So, if you realize these are needs of yours, what are the chances that you can stick to your gut and tell him this is how it needs to be for you? Or, have you thought of an arrangement in one house that might still satisfy space and mystery for you? It would be a shame to go down a route that you know will eventually kill the relationship, or key pieces of it.

annoula · 07-01-07 19:23:33

I am not so lucky as he is quite old fashioned in how he views the relationship...he is a romantic and an idealist whereas i am more realistic and sometimes cynical...of course in my own weird way that is part of his appeal to me...

I am hoping his own need of *mystery keeping* will help and the fact that he works so much, i don't start crawling up the wall after too long together.

The fact that we have sustained, or should i say reinvented our passion, seems a positive thing and i am clinging to hope...We have been slightly bored and not paid attention to each other as we do now, but managed to get out of that loop.

I must admit the whole aspect of family, kids etc will not enter most probably into our life, so that keeps me devoted to the many aspects of coupledome.

Long term relationships and aspects of infidelity are my main concerns and problems i have not resolved in my head. Too many conflicts...Most probably will never be able to have a specific philosophy ever.

As for the book...
Still stuck on page 39...I blame the forum!

momentextase · 08-01-07 07:05:57

eros62 wrote:

....
I'm curious about any of your experiences that relate to this topic. A female friend of mine is fairly adamant about not moving in with a lover, always keeping her own place, in order to keep the mystery alive. Of course, if companionship is key, eros may not be as important. But for those for whom it is, any suggestions or stories? ....

Such a thought provoking thread Eros62. Thank you!

After a long holiday adventure spent in the desert wilderness and the de facto communicato that such a place imposes, perhaps this is the perfect point to re-engage in this forum.

Yes, how to keep Eros and mystery alive. Speaking for myself, and out of my own experience, at the heart of this question I feel there are two big areas of exploration. One is the difference (if any) between being 'friends"...and being lovers. Another is our basic ideas, expectations and inclinations about what love (that includes eroticism) "should" be.

I too have been married (once.. we lived together ), been in relationships where we both lived alone, and have been in relationships where we lived together (not married).

In retrospect I realized ( well, after 50+ years a person should have learned something... lol!) that I AND my partner do far better in a relationship when we live apart. Also, I realized that my partner and I must be friends, as well as lovers, for the relationship to last or work at all or to grow.

In my marriage, and in a few of other relationships I was amazed to hear something like this: "We can't be friends...we are lovers. You can't be friends and also be lovers...." ( while those relationships started out splendidly...they each slowly disintegrated.)

In my marriage of course we lived together, as per the "white picket fence" values we are taught as youths. In two other relationships, one which worked and one that did not, we did not live together... so living together -or not- is not the difference that makes the difference.

However, in the most committed, sublime, erotic and lasting relationship I ever had, we did not live together. We did almost everything together, but we each had our own place where we could just "be" and check in with "self." That relationship (over a decade) was cut short only by my partners death.

Using the metaphor of a bridge, the individuals in the relationship are like the pillars at each end of the bridge... the you and the me... and the relationship is like the span in between the pillars, where the "us" resides. For a bridge each pillar must be sound for the span to endure. So it is with a relationship. We both found that living apart allowed us the "space" we both required to keep our "pillar" in repair... and that kept the "ownership" of our relationship very intentional. It facilitated our being "present" with ourselves enough to maintain clarity. That in turn ever so much facilitated our ability to be sensitive to, "present" with and accepting of each other.

I totally believe when my lovers told me that friendship and being lovers was incompatible, that this was true for them... but now I know it is not my way or true for me. Finding out that it IS possible to find a partner (or in our case partners) where it is possible to be both "friends" and be "lovers" was an epiphany. And a hard won one at that, given the society bias toward defining relationships that have a sexual component in very narrow ways.

Between friends differences are taken for granted and give a relationship life. A friend's basic idiosyncrasies and personal taste are accepted as unalterable, even though one or the other friend may chose to alter something for the sake of the friendship. But such alterations or changes are never a demand and seldom ever even an expectation.

However, when the question of love and Eros enters the scene, many people will equate being lovers with a union that "merges two people so completely that they abandon their differences." This is very different in its thrust than friendship. So for those that think lovers cannot also be friends, I can now understand this view and feeling... but now I also know it is not the only way.

The passage below most eloquently describes my, and maybe many other people's expectations and inclinations about what love (love that includes Eros) "should" be... or more to put it more accurately... what works for me and people inclined as I am.

"You were born together, and together you shall be forevermore.
You shall be together when white wings of death scatter your days.
Aye, you shall be together even in the silent memory of God.
But let there be spaces in your togetherness,
And let the winds of the heavens dance between you.
Love one another but make not a bond of love:
Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.
Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup.
Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf.
Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,
Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.
Give your hearts, but not into each other's keeping.
For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.
And stand together, yet not too near together:
For the pillars of the temple stand apart,
And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other's shadow."
~Kahlil Gibran

"For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts." I cannot express how profound a truth this has proved to be for me. it also fits well with my intuition we are all connected at some primally fundamental level and that our individuality is the instrument of the lessons we were put here to learn.

Below is a different passage that describes the "polar alternative" ( as best I understand it ) that forms many other peoples expectations and inclinations about what love (that includes Eros) "should" be... or again to put it more accurately... what works for them.

"One important aspect of a good love relationship is what may be called need identification, or the pooling of the hierarchies of basic needs in two persons into a single hierarchy. The effects of this is that one person feels another's needs as if they were their own and for that matter also feels their own needs to some extent as if they belonged to each other. An ego now expands to cover two people, and to some extent the two people have become for psychological purposes a single unit, a single person, a single ego."
~Abraham Maslow

So here we have two perspectives or basic inclinations.... the first which NEEDS love to manifest as a "being with", and the second NEEDS love to manifest as a "merging into one"....or of "being one." Also, the second it seems to me, is the foundation concept of what is termed modern (post middle ages) "romantic love."

Both of these "polar alternatives" are completely valid worldviews. Both work for people. And of course life is not so simple as to ever find a person that does not include a mixture of these two ways of being... but I have found there is always a bias toward one end of this duality or the other in a person.

I can't help think that lack of awareness of this phenom, no matter how one abstracts it, leads to many confusions and problems, it certainly did for me. I need enough "space" and alone time to "ground" myself. My ex-wife and some of my past "lovers" (as well as myself!!!) would perceive this as a flaw in our "oneness"... and in our love, and that would lead to various states (on both sides) of being turned off. The way I was, and needed to be... was not OK. And my lack of awareness of how THEY needed to be... was non-understandable to me... so they were in my mind "not OK." An Eros dampener, that cut in both directions, to be sure.

Familiarity and the pedestrian realities of everyday life are the enemies of eros. Emma Bovary watches her husband eat and is disgusted... A friend of mine told me about evenings out with her husband, during which they seduce each other all over again and she can't wait to get home and jump on his beautiful body; but if on the way into the house he pauses to straighten the lids on the garbage cans, the spell is broken. She told him, and he now resists this urge.

This is so interesting. When I look back this is especially true when I am not able to get enough "space." Or when I got lost in needs of the other that were impossible for me to fill, or I expected the other to fill needs of mine they just could not, etc. Worse is the situation where one feels compelled to "edit" anything really important about themselves to conform to what the other says they need... to hold things together. I call this losing "ground"... losing self. It is such an honesty killer. As I look back, I realize when I lose "groundedness," the little idiosyncratic ways others behave have their best chance to "get to me" in negative ways. And that is also when I become most prone to becoming insensitive as to how the way I handle trash can lids is affecting the other. Loss of empathy for self leading to loss of empathy for other.

Still, I wonder if these are only symptoms of trying to make a relationship work with someone who has a "need identity" (as defined as "Being with" vs. "Being one,") that is too different from one's own?

BTW... this idea is not my own... not by a long shot. Before her death, before even her diagnosis, on my birthday my partner gave me a book by C. Clayton Vidder titled "The Principles of Seduction". This is the source of the thesis about the two types of "need identity" I set forth above. ( She also gave me "Tuesdays with Morrie" that day... I remember thinking then, before I read the books, "What odd choices." Now they seem such eerie and even precognitive choices. Such good choices.)

After I read the book, many questions that I had about sex, love and relationships that I had struggled with for years crystallized with my experiences into some small measure of insight. It radically helped our relationship, especially my end of it, and especially my ability to become congruent with our relationship's more unconventional aspects, to resolve conflicts that had been pestering me. Not only that, but it is one of the few things that I have read on the subject of sexual inclinations, attractions and sexual psychology that has had such a sustained positive impact on me or that ever provided such wise and humane practical guidance. Of course my partner must have known it would do that... the imp! lol!

annaoula wrote:

....
"So the familiarity and trust of a lasting liason with a dash of mystery does it for me."...

I am not real sure why yet, but I totally adore your comment annoula! This strikes a chord for me.

Perhaps what endears me is that it is concise, and also it integrates the words trust and mystery into one idea and expression. My initial feelings are that mystery is like air for a relationship, also in a relationship, the biggest enemy of Eros is lack of or a breach of trust between partners. Where honesty rules mystery can feel safe enough to come out to play, and all becomes possible. Yet, where trust is lacking, it seems to me that mystery can actually allow distrust to magnify almost any and every problem that happens along. And then either mystery will flee or the relationship will implode under the weight of distrust. Your passage has provoked so many thoughts... will have to think on this a bit...

Last edited by momentextase (08-01-07 07:32:07)

Desertgirl44 · 08-01-07 07:26:37

Sometimes you read a post here at IFM and you find yourself nodding, feel the excitement building inside you and you throw a fist into the air and shout "YES! YES, YES YES!"

Momentextase, thank you so much for posting that most eloquent essay of personal thoughts and views.

I relate so much to what you have said, but I need some time to compose my response. But first, I wish to say thank you from the bottom of my heart for posting, especially the final paragraph which prompts me to re-evaluate where I am today with my own relationship with my partner.

I shall return.

momentextase · 08-01-07 08:46:50

Desertgirl44 wrote:

Sometimes you read a post here at IFM and you find yourself nodding, feel the excitement building inside you and you throw a fist into the air and shout "YES! YES, YES YES!"
Momentextase, thank you so much for posting that most eloquent essay of personal thoughts and views.
I relate so much to what you have said, but I need some time to compose my response. But first, I wish to say thank you from the bottom of my heart for posting, especially the final paragraph which prompts me to re-evaluate where I am today with my own relationship with my partner.
I shall return.

Wow Desertgirl44, thank you for your comment about my post. From the bottom of my heart, you really made my day... just so you know.

I set forth a view that I have visceral knowledge of, but have never seen explained before except in the book I mentioned. I merely recast that through the lens of what has happened in my life, much is retrospective. I am a slow learner and a late bloomer I guess.

I am new here and I am so impressed with the people here but still I was not sure people would get my point... and that you have I find thrilling.

I am a bit apprehensive... that last paragraph was my least well (IMHO) thought through... I am still pondering the feeling and ideas I got from annaoula's comment I quoted. I urge gentleness and compassion in all re-evaluations. So I am curious about your parting comments, how could I not be... and I look forward with anticipation to your thoughts. Again, thank you!

Desertgirl44 · 08-01-07 13:05:24

Needing to be friends as well as lovers, and the need, sometimes, to be apart in order for the relationship to thrive. Momentextase’s final paragraph in his original post spoke of the need for honesty so that the “mystery” could thrive within the relationship. I interpret “honesty” to mean “being true to oneself”. That self-confidence that allows one to speak up honestly, and respectfully, to one’s partner and tell them what you’re feeling, what you’re needing. Without the fear that they might not understand. I interpret “mystery” to mean those constant discoveries about your partner that reassure you that, yes, this person is the right partner for me.

I’ve been married. Once. Lasted 19 years. The bulk of that marriage was your traditional white-picket fence, 2.4 children and a mortgage. And very much the “two become one” model. His was the overwhelming personality, he dominated. His job was more important as it brought in so much money. My job was to raise the children. And to be at his beck and call. I lost myself somewhere in that marriage, my personality was suppressed, I was no longer a person within my own right, I was just someone’s mother or someone’s wife.

The latter years of that marriage were spent experimenting with swinging and the open marriage lifestyles. In many ways this extended our marriage well beyond it’s use-by date. Finally I’d had enough and I walked away and started a new life on my own.

I enjoyed a number of short-lived, whimsical, fun encounters with a range of people and personalities, many of whom became long-lasting friends.

I am now in a permanent, long-term relationship (6 years and counting) with the man I live with. We’d been friends for many years prior to becoming lovers. I never did understand that idea that good friends cannot also be good lovers. I still don’t. I believe good friendship is a sound basis to a relationship. With friendship as the backbone, you can deal with any problems to do with sex and romance because you’re safely cocooned in the knowledge that a friend will understand and be patient as you work through it.

My partner gives me as much space as I need and want. Even though we live together in a house we do maintain a private room each in which to do our own thing. When I need to, my partner does not mind if I take off on a solo holiday for weeks at a time. He understands if I suddenly need to get out of the house and take a walk or disappear for a few hours. Even within the house he will give me my own space and respect it. (And I return the favour.)

Initially I thought it was he who needed the space and time to be apart. Six years later I see it is me who needs it. We’re now reaching a stage I feel, where he is no longer quite as happy to just “let me go”, at least not on those long holidays alone. I still get my space at home to be me, to explore me and to create. My partner and I share many interests, but we also have many interests we do not share, nor even understand. And that’s okay. Somehow it all works.

But I have to remember that this relationship is not even close to being a “two becoming one”. We are definitely two individuals living side by side, sharing love, companionship, support and sex. We don’t share finances, which is something our friends and family do not understand as that one really goes against the society standard. I have my own wants and needs, strengths and weaknesses. And so does he.

Sorry, I’m not very eloquent tonight. Life’s so hectic at the moment. What I’m trying to say is that it is possible to have a relationship whereby you do give each other space and time apart even when living under one roof. Always remember what suited you when you were 20 may not suit you when you’re 30, or 40. Then again it might. You have to be honest with yourself and recognize your own needs. Respect the fact your partner is an individual, accept them for whoever they are, don’t seek to change them beyond what they want to change for themselves.

As for Eros? I’m 44, nearly 45. I’ve learned that you need to be comfortable with sex and your sexuality, be honest about expressing your needs (and what delights you), be willing to compromise so that both you and your partner enjoy the experience. Delight in your partner’s sexuality. Seize the moment, whenever you can, and enjoy it for all its sensuality and fun. Don’t forget to make time for non-sexual, sensual touching, those hugs and kisses that mean so much but don’t necessarily have to lead to sex. Maintain a sense of humour. Always find something to smile about.

For myself, I’m now facing the challenge that my libido is greater than that of my partner. Wanting to maintain a monogamous relationship, I use masturbation and porn as an additive to my sex life. It’s taken a few years but my partner is now comfortable with the fact that I am so open about this. He says he wasn’t feeling pressured to perform, he just seemed uncomfortable talking about sex. When he is up for sex, it’s fucking great! Always has been and shows no sign of ever becoming boring. Something about that tells me I must be doing something right with this relationship.

The_Elfman · 08-01-07 13:47:03

Momentextase.

In this place I have become used to reading contributions which are thoughtfully and beautifully expressed but every now and again one comes along which takes my breath away with its profundity and eloquence. Your post above was one of the finest I have ever read here and reminds me why this forum is so special. Thank you.

Desertgirl44.

Thank you also for your lovely post above. You are without doubt a very special lady and your partner should go down on his knees every night and thank whatever powers he believes in for allowing him to be with you. Your words below are marvellous advice for maintaining a happy, stable relationship and I agree with every word (except the first sentence).

Desertgirl44 wrote:

Sorry, I’m not very eloquent tonight. Life’s so hectic at the moment. What I’m trying to say is that it is possible to have a relationship whereby you do give each other space and time apart even when living under one roof. Always remember what suited you when you were 20 may not suit you when you’re 30, or 40. Then again it might. You have to be honest with yourself and recognize your own needs. Respect the fact your partner is an individual, accept them for whoever they are, don’t seek to change them beyond what they want to change for themselves.
As for Eros? I’m 44, nearly 45. I’ve learned that you need to be comfortable with sex and your sexuality, be honest about expressing your needs (and what delights you), be willing to compromise so that both you and your partner enjoy the experience. Delight in your partner’s sexuality. Seize the moment, whenever you can, and enjoy it for all its sensuality and fun. Don’t forget to make time for non-sexual, sensual touching, those hugs and kisses that mean so much but don’t necessarily have to lead to sex. Maintain a sense of humour. Always find something to smile about.

Let me share a symbolic, Cyberspatial hug with you both.

Elfman

eros62 · 08-01-07 16:47:05

I can't thank you all for sharing the way you are doing. These posts are so much more than I expected when I posed the question! I'm simply shaking my head in disbelief that I've stumbled across a site like this, with the amazingly honest, beautiful souls who contribute to this forum.

I still need to read and re-read this thread, and then re-read it again, but heading off to work so... later!

annoula · 08-01-07 23:01:33

learning life everyday.... even by reading...

jwhite · 09-01-07 03:45:04

I think that each successful relationship finds its' own truth. The most successful parts of my first, failed marriage were the times spent apart (she was, for a time, a state legislator, and would on occasion be gone for a week or two at a time.) It meant that we could be superficial without having to address the failure we both knew was coming.

I have written in other places about my second marriage, and will not recapitulate that part. I am, however, convinced that it was so successful for several reasons. First, Donna was my best friend. Not best female, not one of the best, not squeezed into friendship thru lust, but the one person I could tell all the things that I could share with only the very close. I have other very good friends. She was it. Why do we try to separate friendship and sex? (Well, other than the obvious sexual orientation thing) Why shouldn't your lover be your friend? You are sharing intimate, vulnerable moments, moments you trust the other person to honor and respect- is not friendship an essential part of that?

Second, while we lived together, and adored doing so, we both accepted the others' need for space. I think that, because it was understood that spending every available moment together was neither expected nor, perhaps, even desired, it made it ok to be together- it was a thing we chose, rather than a thing society foisted upon us or that we did for convention's sake. The very fact that it was acceptable to be apart made it desireable to be together. If one of us needed to be alone or apart, we accepted without question. I wish I could say without resentment, but we raised children together, so that was not always possible. Even apart, tho, it was clear that we were togther, not in parallel. We both had interests we were happy to talk about, but didn't share- and we had things we were both passionate about.

When you think back just a short time ago, when many marriages were arranged and were, indeed, more property arrangements than relationships, it is amazing that we should believe we are entitled to any sort of satisfying romantic arrangement. In the several threads of this forum, I've read of many different arrangements the partners find accceptable, and in the end, I guess that is the best definition of success.

I do, however, find the connection between love and death very intereting. This makes at least three....

Last edited by jwhite (09-01-07 03:46:56)

Desertgirl44 · 09-01-07 05:15:01

The_Elfman wrote:

Let me share a symbolic, Cyberspatial hug with you both.
Elfman

Oh Elfman, I am so touched and uplifted by your comments. Consider yourself Cyberspatially hugged back!

And Eros62, yes this forum is an amazing place. The forum is a major drawcard for my continued membership of this site. So many interesting threads and discussions with so many well thought out posts. I've gained so much in the few short months of my membership.

momentextase · 09-01-07 10:03:42

This was the first day back at the office after my long holiday, and I am totally exhausted. So many thoughtful insights and comments by everyone and I want to add to a few of my own but need to do that later, save for these:

Desertgirl
What a wonderful post, very eloquent in my opinion and more than that, so heartfelt and genuine. Your interpretation of my last paragraph not only captured what I was trying to express, but you also dislodged the last little bit that was eluding me... but exposition of that can wait. As you told your story, in many ways I felt it as if I was looking in a mirror, a feeling I find I am having often as I am able to read more and more posts on IFM. The result of your re-evaluation of your relationship made my day, thats twice now. lol! So many things you said triggered some thoughts for me... I too shall return

Elfman
Big Cyberspatial hug back! If we keep this up, maybe we will all end up turning into Cyberspatial Teletubbies... there are worse fates you know! Seriously, what you said about what I wrote means a lot to me. Thank you so much.

eros62
Looks like we are neighbors-or as close as it gets- given the divergent latitudes and longitudes from whence the people on this site post! I know what you mean when you say "I'm simply shaking my head in disbelief that I've stumbled across a site like this..." My feelings also, and I could not agree more. Also, I love how questions or comments can act like fuses... light them and all sorts of skyrockets start going off!

annoula
"learning life everyday..."
I feel it all adds up to this.
Again you distill pure essences. And so concisely.
I wish my thought process was centered enough to do that the way you do.

jwhite
Excellent and thought provoking post, appreciate your point (and Desertgirl's as well) that living under one roof does not preclude being able to find space. I am interested in what you said about how "it is amazing that we should believe we are entitled to any sort of satisfying romantic arrangement", also curious about your last sentence. Will comment a bit more later...

#1 07-01-07 00:49:55

A Plea for Eros

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#7 08-01-07 08:46:50

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#8 08-01-07 13:05:24

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#11 08-01-07 23:01:33

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#12 09-01-07 03:45:04

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#13 09-01-07 05:15:01

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#14 09-01-07 10:03:42

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