Our whores are taking a Christmas holiday!

padraic · 18-12-06 11:51:42

dauphinb2 wrote:

It would be, if you approached it in those terms. But you've framed the premise in a way that's prejudiced in favor of your conclusion. Using terms like "purchasing or renting someone else's body" casts the transaction as a sort of temporary slavery, which would be truly awful... but then again, you could pretty much say the same about any sort of service rendered for pay: Having a hotel porter carry your luggage is perfectly decent and acceptable (assuming you tip properly and behave with respect), but if you called that relationship "purchasing the porter's body for labor" it wouldn't seem acceptable at all.
Sex work is not temporary slavery (not even when you're acting out a dominance fantasy); it's professional service, and part of the entertainment/hospitality industry. A singer sings, a chef cooks, a whore fucks... in each case, giving you pleasure in exchange for pay; in each case, without any pretense of permanence or spiritual significance; and in each case, perfectly honorably. Or that's the way I see it, at least.

I would argue, dauphinb2, that the involvement of intimate body parts without any corresponding emotional connection at all is not comparable to using one's ears to hear a singer sing, or eating what a chef prepares. All 'services' aren't equivalent and aren't equally innocuous. To take an admittedly extreme example, a professional hit man provides a service for his client, too, and one that some psychopathic individuals would certainly find entertaining. No, I'm not saying that prostitution or even pimping are anything like murder for hire. But the image of whores as 'empowered', to the extent that there is any truth in it at all, is largely a Western phenomenon. Worldwide, many thousands of poor, illiterate women, and girls and no doubt boys as well, are virtually enslaved in the sex trade, with essentially no options for escape. They are from all accounts treated with utter heartlessness. The Western world is after all a relatively small portion of the globe and of the world's population. Even in the Western world life for many prostitutes is harsh and short. In my health care work I have personally known numbers of young women who would literally do anything, with anybody, without protection or self-respect, if it meant that they would get that rock of crack cocaine that they crave. For myself I simply cannot romanticise the sex trade given the above facts. Yes in the West there are a few practitioners of 'sacred prostitution' who are apparently trying to include real healing in what they do. But for myself again, I'd say that even the safest, most 'ideal' Western brothel, while far preferable to the virtual slavery that prevails in many parts of the world, still reduces what is in its essence an intimate act to a commercial transaction stripped of its vital caring humanity.

aven frey · 19-12-06 05:06:53

I agree with you Padraic when you say that people in poverty stricken countries are exploited in the most horrific ways by the parts of the sex industry (and more then often by their wealthy neighboring countries) but I would also argue that one of the reasons this goes on somewhat unchecked (there are many reasons but this is one of them) is the stigma (which in part can be attributed to peoples denegration of service ie reducing an intimate acte to a commercial trasaction) attatched to prostitution. This also applies to violence against sex workers in Western countries. If prostitution was treated like daulphinb suggested, just a personal service, as honorable as say a masseuse, I doubt we would have such an exploitative and dangerous industry as we do now.
And here be another link (because other poeple say it all so much more eloquently them me!)
http://www.wakingvixen.com/blog/index.html

nihpuad · 19-12-06 07:02:30

padraic wrote:

I would argue, dauphinb2, that the involvement of intimate body parts without any corresponding emotional connection at all is not comparable to using one's ears to hear a singer sing, or eating what a chef prepares.

You could argue that, and I couldn't prove otherwise... nor would I want to. But I do disagree: You suggest sex is somehow elevated above other physical pleasures because it involves specially "intimate" body parts... but I think we only count those parts as specially intimate because of their involvement in sex. To be sure, I'm aware of the unique significance our culture places on sex, but I think that's primarily a religious construct, and I don't feel compelled to conform to anyone else's religious strictures.

And you know, I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that sex is all that different from other pleasures: Food is fairly commonly eroticized in literature, and "gluttony" appears side-by-side with "lust" in most lists of the seven deadly sins. I also think it's something of a false dichotomy to suggest that any of these pleasures is always either sacred or profane: Food may be a transcendent meal full of social and spiritual significance, or it may just be a snack; music may be majestic and complex art, or it may just be a tune; ...and sex may be a deeply resonant spiritual and emotional sharing, or it may just be happy exercise. And any of the three may be some subtle mix of the sacred and profane all at once, as well. AND I by no means believe the "profane" versions of these pleasures are bad things: Who says something has to be freighted with Deep Significance in order to add joy to life?

All that said, though, if you choose to reserve your sexuality in all cases for expressing deep emotional connections, well, more power to you. I respect your choice.

padraic wrote:

All 'services' aren't equivalent and aren't equally innocuous. To take an admittedly extreme example, a professional hit man provides a service for his client, too, and one that some psychopathic individuals would certainly find entertaining.

I'm not suggesting you, personally, meant this this way, but your analogy hints at what I think many others do believe: That sex is inherently evil or dirty, and that it's only acceptable when it's sanctified by a higher purpose, such as love or spirituality or service to the divine. I disagree, as you might have guessed.

padraic wrote:

Worldwide, many thousands of poor, illiterate women, and girls and no doubt boys as well, are virtually enslaved in the sex trade, with essentially no options for escape. They are from all accounts treated with utter heartlessness.

This is no doubt true, and it's despicable. But any labor can be slavery, if it's coerced and the laborers are treated as chattel. Sexual slavery is evil because it's slavery, not because it's sexual. (As an aside, if you want to claim that sex slavery is worse than other kinds because of the personal nature of sex, I won't disagree... but it's like ranking greater and lesser infinities: Once you're enslaved, the relative dignity of your labor is secondary, at best, to the fact that you're enslaved.) And the fact that sex work is sometimes slavery doesn't mean it always is: Shoes are sometimes made in sweatshops by child slave labor; does that mean shoemaking is a dishonorable profession always and everywhere? Surely not.

I'm not naive: I understand that human trafficking for sex exists, and that sexual exploitation of children exists, and that even some "free" sex workers are driven to it by the tyranny of drugs or poverty. But I also believe there are sex workers who are in the business by their own unfettered choice, and who enjoy their work at least as well as any of us enjoy ours, and whose services can be employed without guilt. In the U.S., you can open your yellow pages to "Escort Services" or check the escort ads in the back of your local alternative newspaper. The provider you find that way will almost certainly not be some frightened third-world child, but rather a reasonably well-groomed, well-spoken American of middle-class background.

Calenture · 19-12-06 07:21:08

Congratulations to all participants to this thread for sustaining a civilised, intelligent and thought-provoking debate, when it could so easily have gone in a whole different direction.

polarchill · 19-12-06 07:50:13

max wrote:

I agree with you Padraic when you say that people in poverty stricken countries are exploited in the most horrific ways by the parts of the sex industry (and more then often by their wealthy neighboring countries) but I would also argue that one of the reasons this goes on somewhat unchecked (there are many reasons but this is one of them) is the stigma (which in part can be attributed to peoples denegration of service ie reducing an intimate acte to a commercial trasaction) attatched to prostitution. This also applies to violence against sex workers in Western countries. If prostitution was treated like daulphinb suggested, just a personal service, as honorable as say a masseuse, I doubt we would have such an exploitative and dangerous industry as we do now.

Well put.

For the ultimate fun fantasy of female empowerment, by the way, the Old City hookers in "The Big Fat Kill" segment of Frank Miller's Sin City (the graphic novel or the movie, take your pick, since they're virtually identical) are a blast to watch. The would-be protagonist spends most of his narrative time getting his butt saved by the self-governing working girls/militia of the piece.

padraic · 19-12-06 07:55:04

Hi Max. Interesting thoughts. I guess I would tend to think that denigrating prostitutes comes in part from denigrating sexuality itself, as well as (to a certain extent) from denigrating women. There is definitely also a cultural contempt for those who perform services seen as 'menial', or even skilled blue collar types of labour. This would go double for workers engaged in the 'dirty' business of sex. This is a kind of snobbery that fails to recognize our fellow human service workers as being as worthy as any of us. All human beings are born with innate dignity and (so Buddhists believe) innate purity and goodness. If sexuality is seen as filthy and sex workers are seen as rubbish, then sick minds will see no problem with preying on them.

But if sexuality is seen as beautiful and our fellow human beings as just as worthy as ourselves, then people would not misuse these precious gifts for money, no matter how horny they got. What I'm saying is that I don't think we can elevate prostitution by promoting respect for service workers who happen to be in the sex business. I think that if we had the respect for our fellow human beings that we should have, we wouldn't visit prostitutes in the first place, and we would be at pains to see that no one would have to live such a life. There would be better options in life for all of us. Having said that, anything that can be done to make whores' lives safer should be done, until we as a society have grown up enough so that treating *anyone* in a dehumanising manner is unthinkable.

When we have a toothache, we go to the dentist. When we're ill, we go to the doctor's surgery. When we're in emotional pain, we see a therapist. When we feel like having an orgasm, we do --- what? Isn't this something we can do for ourselves when we don't happen to have a partner? We can't drill our own teeth nor diagnose our illnesses. We allow these professionals into our bodies and minds because they are healers. Yes, paid healers, but they operate from both knowledge and a strict ethical code (or they are mandated to, at least). When we visit a prostitute, we know nothing about that person's history or needs, except that they are asking for money. We don't know whether they've been abused, we don't know what we may be doing to them emotionally, simply by patronising them. And we aren't disposed to care, as long as we get what we're after --- which again ISN'T something that someone else has to do for us. There are a few sex surrogates and sincere 'sacred sex' healers who really are trying to better the lives of their patrons. In such cases, much more than money could potentially be exchanged. This just isn't true for the sex trade as a whole. Far from it.

The idea that all people have dignity and rights appeared only very recently in human history. While human rights have advanced greatly just in the last few decades, in much of the world, including most of the West, human worth is more of an abstract ideal than a fact. Yes, prostitutes ARE just as honorable as anyone else. And if we really think so, we won't visit them. We'll find other ways to give them what they need to survive. I just don't think there's any such thing as 'impersonal intimacy', nor that prostitution is merely one of many kinds of other services. I'm an idealist about intimacy, and I truly believe that prostitution is a sad misuse of our potential for it.

I haven't had time to look at your link yet, Max, but I will. Thanks!

bolero · 19-12-06 08:54:44

blissed wrote:

Desertgirl44 wrote:
I have met women (usually women in their late 30s and 40s) who, because life and work are so time-consuming, choose to hire a male sex worker on a semi-regular basis to "scratch an itch". Personally, I couldn't do that. I enjoy the the bonding and intimacy of a relationship (no matter how short in duration).
I feel the same as you right now, but I think altho seeing someone merititious is something quite different from a relationship I'm sure if you see someone on a regular basis, you may become freinds and possibly stay freinds or am I letting my wishful thinking imagination run away with me. I'm sure I'm not and that the situation I've just described has happened many times. So in summary, mutual close companionship is something quite special and if your someone who's missing that, your better off scratching your itch yourself until you find another close companion.

.

Yes I prefer to scratch my own itches too - in one way or another. On a more sober note the current epidemic of murdered prostitutes in Ipswich throws the issue of prostitution up in another light. The five girls who have been murdered were reportedly "in the business" to support a severe dope habit. That seems to be saying to me that they would not have been prostitutes if their minds and bodies had not been captured by demons like heroin. So how many "whores" are in it for reasons other than that? Because if that is a prevalent reason then their involvement in prostitution has nothing to do with sex and sex is a means to an end, and a pretty desperate one at that. I have no idea what the stats are concerning the correlation between prostitution and use of dope, but my feelings are that it's not inconsiderable.

padraic · 19-12-06 09:15:32

First of all, thanks to Max, dauphinb2, and everyone else who has been respectful and thoughtful in this thread. I replied to Max's post first because it was the only one up when I wrote my reply. Your other fine posts will require some more time and thought if I'm to give them the attention they deserve. The bottom line for me is that I believe that ALL people have equal innate worth, as I'm sure the vast majority of us on IFM do. I don't think at all that consenting prostitutes or their patrons are bad or evil in any way for any reason, including the fact that their exchange involves sexual contact. I believe though that participating in prostitution at either end is more likely to be an affront to human worth than it is to be an affirmation of it, and more likely to lead in the long term to unhappiness than to serenity. I hope that there are exceptions to this. I would be happy and relieved to hear it, although from what I know there don't seem to be many.

So what really makes for relative human happiness, in the long term? We'll all have to find our own answers to that. For me, it 's a question of sincerely asking myself what real, caring behavior is or isn't, and of trying to act on that. I have a lot to learn about it. I think that life itself, if we only pay attention, will have the answers for each of us in its own way.

Thanks again to all for participating and for keeping our discussion on a high level.

bolero · 19-12-06 13:55:43

Padraic, thank you for a very thoughtful and beautifully expressed statement.

padraic · 19-12-06 18:59:30

bolero wrote:

Padraic, thank you for a very thoughtful and beautifully expressed statement.

Thank you very much, Bolero, for your kind words.

And thanks again to my fellow IFMers, not just for this thread but for keeping IFM such an interesting and --- I mean this sincerely --- honorable place to be a part of. We sometimes have our differences, but what we have in common transcends them.

blissed · 19-12-06 22:11:48

If you work the streets you keep all the money your paid but you must have to be desperate to face the dangers (STDs, violence) so I would think thats why nearly everyone on the street has a drug habit. I think my little wishful thinking world of happy hookers does exist somewhere, not out on the street tho but in a legal practice.
If you have a heroin habit you should be helped with it, I'd prefer to see resources put into outreaching those people with a view to them leading the life they prefer.
That would mean a nurse giving them their heroin shots at a clinic everyday for free as part of a gradual rehab program. Establishing a legal merititous proffession would go hand in hand with free drug clinics. So as the tragic cases left, people would enter who enjoy it. (ha ha wishful thinking land again but I think it could happen.

.

gala · 22-12-06 10:05:13

hey max: i love that we are trafficking on the same sites...annie sprinkle and audacia ray keep getting my attention these days as well. we are going to have so much to discuss! get the cocktails (and then the french fries and then the coffee) ready!

eros62 · 23-12-06 02:01:46

padraic wrote:

When we have a toothache, we go to the dentist. When we're ill, we go to the doctor's surgery. When we're in emotional pain, we see a therapist. When we feel like having an orgasm, we do --- what? Isn't this something we can do for ourselves when we don't happen to have a partner?

When we feel like having an orgasm, it's certainly easier and cheaper to do it ourselves. However, what if it were rephrased as "when we feel like being touched/embraced/caressed intimately by another person"? This is far different from simply wanting an orgasm, and if no partner is around, prostitution seems like an option for many people.

Also, take it from a relative newcomer to sex, there is a world of difference between wacking off and feeling a mouth or well lubricated body (with a soul attached) wriggling on me. And someone who provides erotic pleasure well can easily be compared with a doctor or dentist. There are tips and tricks in the world of erotic pleasure that one does not necessarily have starting out but can definitely be learned if one is interested. Consider the mid-16th century courtesans, for example.

That all being said, I have not visited a prostitute for the very reasons put forth in this thread. My concern is that the vast majority are desperate to survive and to feed a drug problem. (Escort services in Portland, Oregon fall under the same category.) I would almost rather give money and not take advantage of their services, the same way I may help out a panhandler from time to time. There certainly may be women who have a wide spectrum of life opportunities from which to choose yet still choose prostitution. If I ever run across one, I may take the plunge. Hard to ever judge a book by the cover, however.

Fortunately for me, a good friend and I helped each other out throughout this year. Here's to many such opportunities in the future!

blissed · 23-12-06 02:51:36

Hey eros62, thats a really good post! hope you get some more opertunities too.

.

aven frey · 28-12-06 02:01:32

gala wrote:

hey max: i love that we are trafficking on the same sites...annie sprinkle and audacia ray keep getting my attention these days as well. we are going to have so much to discuss! get the cocktails (and then the french fries and then the coffee) ready!

Richard actually put me onto Audacia Rays site just recently! Oh yes I think we will have much to discuss and film and discuss and film!! And I do believe your getting a spanking! In case everyone else is lost Gala is coming to visit us very soon!! We are quite excited!

padraic · 28-12-06 08:43:45

eros62 wrote:

When we feel like having an orgasm, it's certainly easier and cheaper to do it ourselves. However, what if it were rephrased as "when we feel like being touched/embraced/caressed intimately by another person"? This is far different from simply wanting an orgasm, and if no partner is around, prostitution seems like an option for many people... Also, take it from a relative newcomer to sex, there is a world of difference between wacking off and feeling a mouth or well lubricated body (with a soul attached) wriggling on me.

I do understand the preference for human contact. I have it myself. I guess I would contest whether a 'john' is in fact having meaningful human contact rather than an illusion of it, at least in the great majority of cases. From what I've heard, many prostitutes will not permit themselves to be kissed on the lips. Why not, when they allow almost every other kind of act? Because they are withholding their real selves from their customers, their 'intimate self' that they will share only with a partner who really means something to them. Almost anyone, including me, everything else being equal, would rather have sex with a warm body 'with a soul attached'. For me, though, 'attached but absent' would be a parody of real intimacy.

eros62 wrote:

That all being said, I have not visited a prostitute for the very reasons put forth in this thread. My concern is that the vast majority are desperate to survive and to feed a drug problem. (Escort services in Portland, Oregon fall under the same category.) I would almost rather give money and not take advantage of their services, the same way I may help out a panhandler from time to time.

I think you're being a responsible and ethical person to be concerned about the welfare of these young women. Their well-being---not getting our rocks off---should IMO be what drives our decision whether to partake or not. In my professional health work, every prostitute I can ever remember seeing was an addict. When I asked them how they supported their habit, their answer was always the same: 'I sell my body'. Just their body---nothing else. And they weren't selling their bodies because it's the life they always dreamt of when they were girls. How many of us would want to be the one that gave them the means to purchase the drug overdose that kills them? Yes, this is harsh, but that's how life is for these women.
I'm sure that there are some women (or men) in prostitution who aren't addicts, who may sometimes have cordial, relativley non-exploitive relations with their customers. But in order to know whether this is the case, we'd have to really get to know her as a person, enough to care about her. And if we cared, how likely is it that we'd use her in that way?

gala · 01-01-07 18:22:41

there are three things i'd like to address as pertains to this thread: the language we're using (as insightfully addressed by dauphinb2), the western stuff (padriac), and exchange of money for services.

i agree, dauphinb2, that quite often folks frame their opinions about prostitution using language that is 'prejudiced in favor of their conclusion.' and i think that's still happening here to some degree despite your having pointed that out. in many cases this language has a moral agenda built into it, which makes it difficult for others to disagree because to do so would also suggest that we disagree with whatever moral statements are being made (such as the 'inherent value of human life' stuff). as a culture we have managed to tack a lot of unnecessarily-related stuff onto prostitution: sex addiction, drug addiction, abuse, cheapening through commodification, last resorts, etc. whores are ancient, and these associations were not always attached. when we do attach them, as we are continuing to do here, things get really mucky. some of the language used in this thread renders agency and happiness an impossibility for folks who work in sex trade. folks are suggesting that maybe, somewhere they've certainly never been, hookers might be able to *approach* empowerment or pleasant relationships with clients or general satisfaction with their life's work, but that the space they've made for that in their minds is quite slim. this is sad to me, because it condemns women whose experiences we can only speculate to a lifetime of woe, reinforcing the cultural construction of modern prostitution as disease, and reproducing it rhetorically. and so the cycle continues.

the fact that we are discussing this at all is enabled by western systems of thought, as padriac has mentioned. as i see it, much of what we discuss on this forum is enabled by western privilege: the fact that we can even consider our sexual goals and desires in this way is a piece of our western existence. there is a difference between prostitution as it exists in the first world and prostitution as it exists in the third world, and the work that has been done about empowered whores has been done using western modes of knowledge production. the trafficking of third world women for sex is also a western construction, regardless of where it occurs, and is influenced by capitalism, militarism, and institutionalised sexism. sex trafficking of those who have not given consent and prostitution by those who have selected that work are different things, and i think there's a tendency to collapse them into one eternal problem to be solved. so, while it is meaningful and useful to remember that this discussion is characteristically western, i don't think this precludes the empowerment of those whores living and working in the west, even if the possibility of it is enabled by western privilege.

finally, there's the issue of the exchange of money, which seems to somehow cheapen sexuality for those who are not so keen on prostitution. (interesting, as it actually becomes more expensive.) i agree that in order to suggest this, one has to place sexuality on a pedestal of purity and emotional connectivity, which many of us have argued are not part of all sexual encounters, and needn't be. i'm interested in attempting to dismantle this. i don't think that an interaction between a prostitute and a client is necessarily devoid of emotion, and positive emotion at that. on the other hand, i don't think that a sexual exchange needs to be imbued with emotional connections between parties, and to insist that it does is to incorporate a western romanticism which has been culturally attached to sex (and is, i would argue, quite arbitrary). much of what we need has been commodified by capitalism: food, housing, clothing, information, love, etc. and we get in line to buy it like everyone else. i don't see the exchange of sexual services for money as being any different. some of us feel that we can maintain our sexual lives in a gift economy in which we never have to exchange currency and we are 'freely' giving and receiving it via conduits such as love, family, romanticism, and drunkenly fucking whomever we brought home from the club. that's fine. others choose to participate in the exchange of currency for a myriad of reasons, none of which can be essentialized.

i've heard that greta christina's book 'paying for it: a guide for sex workers from their clients' is great for actually hearing from hookers...i think we could all use some of that to supplement our speculation about their experiences.

Last edited by gala (01-01-07 18:26:05)

bolero · 02-01-07 01:49:10

gala wrote:

sex trafficking of those who have not given consent and prostitution by those who have selected that work are different things, and i think there's a tendency to collapse them into one eternal problem to be solved.

I would disagree that this tendency exists. Clearly sex trafficking mostly arises out of the horrific tapestry of powerful people exploiting the impoverished. Most of us, I hope, know the difference between that and elective prostitution. What I think we are talking about here, though, is elective prostitution; and is that really a problem? I think that being a prostitute is only a problem to prostitutes themselves because it's not the act of prostitution which is the problem; it's the reason why they are prostitutes in the first place i.e drug dependency etc. Seemingly, however, there are many woman (and a few men too) who are sex workers because they have chosen to make a career of it and conduct it in a static, safe environment. That being the case, I don't see a problem exists. All of which presupposes that sex workers in either situation have employed effective defences against the health risks associated with multiple partners.

eros62 · 02-01-07 02:39:16

bolero wrote:

Clearly sex trafficking mostly arises out of the horrific tapestry of powerful people exploiting the impoverished. Most of us, I hope, know the difference between that and elective prostitution.

Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure that we do, and I think that's what presents a dilemma for me and some others in this thread.

In theory, it'd be great to know that a sex worker that I solicit has specifically chosen to do that kind of work. However, I've worked with local organizations that have shared some pretty desperate sex worker stories. In the end, a sex worker, whether forced by her boyfriend into the business for drug money or in it as a chosen profession, whether enslaved by local thugs in Thailand or doing it in a completely sex-positive high self-esteem sort of way, will only tell me what I want to hear. They'd be happy to "do me". How can I tell the difference?

As background, I was trained by a strongly feminist but anti-pornography/anti-prostitution organization here in Portland, to help men be better allies with women's struggles. Unfortunately, this training was also quite Puritan and repressive in many ways in its outlook on sex. Their message: if you've used a prostitute, you've raped someone. Period. End.

I've since disassociated myself from this group and stopped my high school speaking on the subject (date rape, violence against women). But it's taken a while to appreciate all the nuances and wonderful positives that sex brings to life. Even, god forbid, sex between a man and a woman. Or, for that matter, a man watching a woman masturbate.

Long story short, if any pro-prostitution forum members can help with this problem of determining who is enslaved and who isn't, then please, by all means, chime in!

blissed · 02-01-07 02:52:03

If you choose a private surgeon you can search for them on a register of their professional body. If selling sexual favours as entertainment and certainly as therapy is fully legal then theres no reason not to have a searchable register for that too. Possibly held by the local authority that licenses the premises. I'm sure in Holland this problem has been considered as therapeutic sexual favours are available using a doctors prescription there.

.

gala · 02-01-07 03:04:24

eros62 wrote:

Long story short, if any pro-prostitution forum members can help with this problem of determining who is enslaved and who isn't, then please, by all means, chime in!

i think this question is better answered by the individual sex workers who are interested in sharing their experiences of their work. you can find testimonies from both ends. none of us (unless anyone has worked in sex trade) can tell anyone else whether or not s/he is a slave. to do so would be marked by some of the feminisms from which you've astutely tried to distance yourself.

bolero · 02-01-07 03:12:48

eros62 wrote:

bolero wrote:
Clearly sex trafficking mostly arises out of the horrific tapestry of powerful people exploiting the impoverished. Most of us, I hope, know the difference between that and elective prostitution.
Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure that we do, and I think that's what presents a dilemma for me and some others in this thread.
In theory, it'd be great to know that a sex worker that I solicit has specifically chosen to do that kind of work. However, I've worked with local organizations that have shared some pretty desperate sex worker stories. In the end, a sex worker, whether forced by her boyfriend into the business for drug money or in it as a chosen profession, whether enslaved by local thugs in Thailand or doing it in a completely sex-positive high self-esteem sort of way, will only tell me what I want to hear. They'd be happy to "do me". How can I tell the difference?
As background, I was trained by a strongly feminist but anti-pornography/anti-prostitution organization here in Portland, to help men be better allies with women's struggles. Unfortunately, this training was also quite Puritan and repressive in many ways in its outlook on sex. Their message: if you've used a prostitute, you've raped someone. Period. End.
I've since disassociated myself from this group and stopped my high school speaking on the subject (date rape, violence against women). But it's taken a while to appreciate all the nuances and wonderful positives that sex brings to life. Even, god forbid, sex between a man and a woman. Or, for that matter, a man watching a woman masturbate.
Long story short, if any pro-prostitution forum members can help with this problem of determining who is enslaved and who isn't, then please, by all means, chime in!

Eros62, you have made a very thoughtful statement on this. I have never been to a prostitute so will quickly admit that I wouldn't know the difference between one who was there because she was enslaved or because she elected to be. Although in this country (NZ) you may well be able to form some valid suspicions; because it's so small and an enslaved sex worker MAY very well be fairly obvious. Opinion only.

I perceived, rightly or wrongly, that the arguement being propelled in this instance by Gala was one of principle, not necessarily practice and that is how I have responded to it. So in principle I do believe that most of us know the difference between "enslaved" prostitution and "elective" or voluntary prostitution and would not like to talk about one with the other in the same breath.

eros62 · 02-01-07 03:13:26

gala wrote:

i think this question is better answered by the individual sex workers who are interested in sharing their experiences of their work.

I will definitely take a look at the resource you mentioned earlier, so thank you for that. But do you see the paradox I'm talking about? At least in the US where prostitution is mostly illegal, no sex worker will say that he/she is doing it against their will. Hindsight is 20/20 and I'm sure the negative testimonies out there were not voiced during a sexual transaction.

Blissed's comment about Holland is apt. However, until prostitution is legalized or at least decriminalized, such registration is impossible.

For those of you in Australia, what kind of registration or monitoring exists, if any? Is there still a stigma to using a prostitute? Is this something one might share around the dinner table?

nihpuad · 02-01-07 08:01:15

gala wrote:

there are three things i'd like to address as pertains to this thread: the language we're using (as insightfully addressed by dauphinb2)....

Thanks for the kind words; I try.

Happy New Year, all! I'm back from a family trip, and while I'm still working my way out from a big pile of stuff that accumulated since (U.S.) Thanksgiving, I'll be back to posting at least a little bit.

I don't know how fresh this thread still is, but I wanted to get in a few thoughts about what still troubles me.

Gala, I think a couple of your points can be seen blended together almost inseparably in some of the (generally very thoughtful) comments we've seen in this conversation. You mention the language aspect of it...

gala wrote:

in many cases this language has a moral agenda built into it, which makes it difficult for others to disagree because to do so would also suggest that we disagree with whatever moral statements are being made (such as the 'inherent value of human life' stuff). as a culture we have managed to tack a lot of unnecessarily-related stuff onto prostitution: sex addiction, drug addiction, abuse, cheapening through commodification, last resorts, etc. whores are ancient, and these associations were not always attached. when we do attach them, as we are continuing to do here, things get really mucky. some of the language used in this thread renders agency and happiness an impossibility for folks who work in sex trade.

...and the money-exchange aspect...

gala wrote:

finally, there's the issue of the exchange of money, which seems to somehow cheapen sexuality for those who are not so keen on prostitution. <much veryinsightful stuff snipped for brevity> much of what we need has been commodified by capitalism: food, housing, clothing, information, love, etc. and we get in line to buy it like everyone else. i don't see the exchange of sexual services for money as being any different. some of us feel that we can maintain our sexual lives in a gift economy in which we never have to exchange currency and we are 'freely' giving and receiving it via conduits such as love, family, romanticism, and drunkenly fucking whomever we brought home from the club. that's fine. others choose to participate in the exchange of currency for a myriad of reasons, none of which can be essentialized.

...and we see what you are (and I was, earlier) talking about, synthesized almost perfectly in a comment from up-thread.

padraic wrote:

But if sexuality is seen as beautiful and our fellow human beings as just as worthy as ourselves, then people would not misuse these precious gifts for money, no matter how horny they got. What I'm saying is that I don't think we can elevate prostitution by promoting respect for service workers who happen to be in the sex business. I think that if we had the respect for our fellow human beings that we should have, we wouldn't visit prostitutes in the first place, and we would be at pains to see that no one would have to live such a life.

I, too, believe that "sexuality is ... beautiful" and that my "fellow human beings <are> just as worthy" as I am... but I don't share Padraic's conclusion that "if we had the respect for our fellow human beings we wouldn't visit prostitutes in the first place." How does he reach that conclusion? Not by any direct assertion or analysis, but by letting the language imply that sexuality is especially sacred ("these precious gifts") and that the exchange of money is especially degrading ("misuse ... for money"): This linguistic insinuation, which presupposes the conclusion, takes the place of actual argument. (Aside to Padraic: I'm not picking on you, personally, here: This line of thought is absolutely woven into our culture, as Gala suggests. I probably would've said roughly the same thing a year ago, before I was confronted by some of the ideas I've met here, even though I had employed prostitutes.) The holiness of sex and the baseness of currency exchange are woven together into a fabric of presumed cultural "truth" that's almost impossible to contradict.

The odd thing is, here in the U.S. at least, the people most likely to be calling for legal/enforcement crackdowns on prostitution and other sexual service businesses (e.g., strip clubs, adult book/toystores, etc.) are the so-called social conservatives (Two asides: 1. I'm not presuming to say anything here about Padraic's own personal politics. 2. I know perfectly well that there are plenty of liberals who oppose sex work, because they see it as a human rights/women's rights issue... but that, IMHO, is another question for another thread.), who are in all other respects the most committed capitalists around: Suggest to them that any other exchange of goods or services is cheapened specifically because money changes hands, and you're likely to get a vigorous argument... and maybe get called a damned socialist, as well! (For all you enlightened Europeans reading this, it may shock you to learn that "socialist" is invariably a pejorative in the U.S.) Only sex is so pure that it's exempt from the principle that everything is a commodity and the market always produces Good.

Why is that? Damfino! I've said it's a religious construct, and I think that's true as far as it goes... but I'm not convinced it's a sufficient answer. Maybe it's because sex is involved in generation, which is an echo of creation and therefore fundamentally mythic. I dunno, though, because...

...food is a "precious gift" with mythic significance -- and if you doubt that, ask your favorite Christian about the loaves and fishes, or the wine at Cana, or the Eucharist itself -- and yet nobody claims selling food degrades the farmer or the grocer or the chef... or their "johns." Art can be, depending on why and for whom it's made, the deepest gift of personal expression, as intimate in its way as anything a lover might do... yet there are no movements to shut down art galleries on the grounds that they're "misus<ing> these precious gifts for money." I'm still struggling with why we've put sex in a separate category from these other very fundamental human appetites and activities, but it's clear we have.

gala wrote:

i've heard that greta christina's book 'paying for it: a guide for sex workers from their clients' is great for actually hearing from hookers...i think we could all use some of that to supplement our speculation about their experiences.

Sounds fascinating; I'll have to check it out. Thanks for the pointer.

BTW, I presume the whores of Alice Springs are back at work? I wish them a happy, healthy, and prosperous New Year!

Last edited by dauphinb2 (02-01-07 08:02:34)

Desertgirl44 · 02-01-07 08:49:50

dauphinb2 wrote:

BTW, I presume the whores of Alice Springs are back at work? I wish them a happy, healthy, and prosperous New Year!

They're still on holiday, back at work next Monday. I'll pass on your good wishes Dauphinb2.

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