men and beards and axes and dirt

viva · 11-12-14 05:51:38

I just read this article in the Atlantic - http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc … _page=true - about modern male appropriation of 'working-class' fashion and the dream of the lumberjack and how all dudes grow up reading an invisible book called "Courage, Liquor, and The Abyss: How to be a Real Man" by Hemingway... ok obviously I made that book up but you see what I'm getting at.

A lot of you guys are... well... guys, so I just kind of wondered what you think about this cultural idea, that men become spineless see-through willow branches when they stop cursing and swinging sharp things and letting their face-hairs grow, and that they become healthy and strong and Real Men when they tussle each other and drink whiskey and recite rough poetry by the light of a little fire.

I'm being kind of sardonic but it's just for laughs, to be honest there may be something in that idea, something essential to masculinity that needs to swing and hit a thing sometimes. At my wedding this year, I saw my 25 year old soft-palmed picky-eating fast-food working brother chopping wood with my bearded viking housemate, and I don't know that I've ever seen my little brother happier. When he got blisters, he didn't complain, but asked me to get them some bandaids and water. He was so proud, you could just tell.

I don't know. What do you guys think?

Monotreme · 11-12-14 22:12:30

I tend to be resistant to most scientific explanations of classically "male" vs "female" behavior. There are so many confounds of gender identity, cultural issues, and individual abilities that I get weird when asked about "typically male" behaviors.

Having said that, I do think that most people (regardless of gender) feel a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment from physical labor, whether it be chopping wood or sewing an apron (as my partner recently did). I'm not sure there's as much difference in the sense of accomplishment as there is a difference in natural ability with an interaction of cultural factors.

If you haven't seen it already, I think you'd really like the book "Delusions of Gender" by Australian psychologist Cordelia Fine (http://sevendeadlysynapses.com/2011/06/ … elia-fine/).

silverrock · 11-12-14 23:06:25

I don't think there is a right or wrong way to act, let's all respect each other and make a better world. Sometimes men act like women and women act like men. Nobody is wrong, nobody is right.

viva · 12-12-14 01:22:17

I really understand your desire as an educator, Monotreme, to not indulge in scientific explanations of male vs female traits... and on an academic level, I think that's fine and good.

However, on a personal level, I think we do grow up and live in a gendered world. Human history has been (at least recorded as) a very gendered thing. And so to profess that we as individuals are somehow above or outside of that is, I think, just not really accurate or helpful. Even the act of rejecting a binary gender model is in itself a function of living within one. I think it's important to acknowledge this - as individuals, we do have ideas of what male and female are, and in order to examine them and possibly dismiss them, we need to hold them up to the light first... so I encourage this kind of [private, personal, non-academic] discussion.

Also, I have sort of strong Jungian and mythical and poetic tendencies which cause me to associate with my own personal creative world, wherein male and female are of great importance. I feel love for and connection with my personal mythology

Since this is the case, I think for me at least, it's worth it to dig deeper and cruise back and forth and along the spectrum, exploring the idea of gender from as many different angles as I can to learn as much about myself as I can.

For example, that I have traits inside me I identify as more masculine or more feminine. And sometimes, this boosts me and is an aid to me, or to identify certain traits in others, helps me accurately understand them. And other times, these associations hold me back, for example when I project on a man that he is indifferent ["men don't care about things the way women do"], when actually he has quite strong feelings and just has not shared them with me. Or when I put myself down for not being "feminine" enough.

So I go back and forth about gender roles being helpful/not helpful to me. I think it's worth it to dig deeper and cruise back and forth and along the spectrum, exploring the idea of gender from as many different angles as I can. Sometimes, realizing *where* they are not helpful is in itself a step in a growing direction.

I guess for me it's as useless to say "gender associations are never helpful/accurate" as it is to say that they are always helpful/accurate. It's a journey.

So, on to the article.

I agree that physical activity is good for everyone. I have worked outside and I found it physically fulfilling, and I have worked inside and I found it intellectually fulfilling... as in all things it's likely a balance is desired more than just jumping from greener pasture to greener pasture.

However, in American society at least, balance seems to be difficult to attain. Considering that jobs are scarce and don't pay well, that free time is packed with commuting and shopping and organizing and feeding... well, some people are just happier than others to juggle many social things. Some people are cut out for this kind of challenge, and some people are just better at navigating society. And maybe it's just boring or unhelpful, maybe it's even sexist, but I tend to consider this joy in social multitasking to be a feminine trait. Inside of me, it's my feminine aspects which take a fierce pleasure in sorting the chaff from the grain, accumulating the tools of domestic life, and generally being engaged with a community, even to the point of inter-dependence with my community.

At the same time, a part of me that feels more masculine to me, feels neglected when I get too involved in my community, when I give too much to and for others and don't take time to nourish myself.

In a way I feel that I see this in the world around me too, and that's what this article is kind of about. This feeling that this is a power time for women, as the legal and political shackles come off, and are finally able to write, to yell, to fight, to tussle, to sink our teeth into the society around us . With these new freedoms we are finding that we're more capable than we ever dreamed. That's great, empowering and exciting, but as established power dynamics shift and privilege is called into question, I think that it's a confusing time to grow up male.

I've heard tell, I've looked around me and I've seen that it's a confusing time period - in the US, we graduate with debt, no jobs, no roadmap, there's no easy path, our dreams are unfulfilled, many people are "working harder than ever and falling further behind". And to me it seems (perhaps groundlessly) that young women are doing quite okay with this lack of security, flying high, creating opportunities, and making the best of it. We know what we can do, we know about being empowered. Are young men adapting the same way?

So what's with the "manchild" archetype? Was that always a thing? That's what this article is about. Are there "womenchild"s? If so, why don't we denigrate them? It's a time where denigrating men is popular, but vocalizing a female put down is more often than not met with outrage (as it should be).

I could just keep going and wondering but I'm gonna intimate people with my many words. So keen to hear about the male experience though if anyone ever wants to share!

aven frey · 12-12-14 04:54:29

that article was amazing, so funny!

My granddad was actually a lumberjack for reals, well an English one, maybe he was a tree feller, he didn't have a beard and also he knocked houses down too, and sold top soil and built houses and loved his family. Gentle would be a perfect way to describe him, he was soft spoken, genuine, calm and rarely angry.

At his funeral my brother got up and told a beautiful story about how we as his family all knew our GD to be this way but when my brother went to work with him as a kid he was startled when our GD would harden up around other men, he would swear and say manly things, loudly. He loved being at work, he loved Australia. He loved felling trees.

viva · 12-12-14 05:15:14

Aven I love that story! So beautiful it touches my heart. This is kind of an archetype for the best kind of "manly man", gentle and loving at home, rough and rowdy with the boys. and maybe it's not very progressive but I love this archetype...

#1 11-12-14 05:51:38

men and beards and axes and dirt

#2 11-12-14 22:12:30

Re: men and beards and axes and dirt

#3 11-12-14 23:06:25

Re: men and beards and axes and dirt

#4 12-12-14 01:22:17

Re: men and beards and axes and dirt

#5 12-12-14 04:54:29

Re: men and beards and axes and dirt

#6 12-12-14 05:15:14

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