#1 25-09-14 02:37:41

aven frey

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#pornstarproblems

So this is an interesting short documentary series about Belle Knox.

It seems to focus on the space between the identities of Miriam (her real name) and Belle and presents a complicated picture of both a smart and savvy and naive and very young woman.

There are some confronting aspects such as the contradiction with her insistence on the absolute agency the porn industry affords her and some problematic power dynamics that make it hard for performers to completely assert their boundaries.

I'm interested to hear what peeps think...

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P … 165E9Qa1ku

viva

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Re: #pornstarproblems

Wow. Dev and I just watched the whole thing...

I'm so torn about this. On one hand it's super honest and real, and has so much value for it.

On the other, this documentary thing is really bad news for both Belle and Miriam, in my opinion. By any name she comes off as insecure, fragile and very, very sheltered.

She's trying to make it in a cutthroat industry that is cynical and mean and fueled by men who just wanna see bitches get fucked. Whether or not there should be, there's not space in mainstream porn for 'I'm not sure',  and while her current fans might get off a bit on her real-life casting couch vulnerability, this documentary goes pretty deep - too deep for comfort. It's too real. I think a lot of her fans, if they saw this series, wouldn't be huge fans of Belle Knox anymore. And that's not good for her career, if she wants it.

What does she want? She made a mistake, went too big too fast. What kind of move is this documentary? What kind of move is a sex reality show? She doesn't seem to be to be the kind of chick who loves celeb or raunch culture, doesn't even particularly seem like the kind of chick who loves porn. Is anyone managing her career?

Like I said before I found this to be powerfully honest and interesting, but I feel really bad for that girl. The whole thing makes me wince. Too much, too fast, and too public. It's not a good situation for her, or at least, it doesn't feel to me that it's a good situation for her, or that her personality is aligned closely with her choices.

Everyone goes through moments of doubt as they pursue their calling or any kind of job, and that is totally fine. And just because you're getting paid it doesn't mean you should be doing something so disney-esque as 'following your dreams' - but damn, girl. Celebrity is a huge burden, and something to be cultivated extra-carefully, especially nowadays. And being a porn celebrity takes a lotta confidence, a no-nonsense attitude and ovaries of steel.

Couldn't she just have danced or does some GFE escort work, kept it on the DL, and continue or call it a day as she pleased? Starting slow and private would have given her time to build her confidence up and work out how she wanted to present herself...

Agh. Is this victim shaming? To say, it's celebrity, it's a man's world, it's a tough cutthroat industry, she should change herself, she shouldn't go out into that night unprotected, she should have worn pants.

Fuck. Like I know that's wrong to expect her to conform to a twisted world, when I compare it to the rape apologist analogy, but geez...

Monotreme

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Re: #pornstarproblems

Viva,

What a thoughtful and eloquent post. Those who have been there, or even near there, know that celebrity minus money is most people's definition of Hell. I get that she needs to fund her education, but take out some freaking loans, then when Dook blurfs you out into the world, and you're unemployable, then at 23 you have the agency and experience and prefrontal cortex to make a decision how you want to make your money.

As it is, she's locked into a smallish number of paths at a very early age. I did everything I could to open more routes to full adulthood, and not close them. I feel sorry for her only because she's closed so many doors in choosing Door #3.

viva

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Re: #pornstarproblems

Thanks Monotreme... yeah, it's really sad. I poked around and found out she does have a manager, and he's making big bucks booking her for absolutely any possible thing that comes along... and like any young kid, she's pumped up by the attention. But she doesn't understand that when her 15 minutes are up, no one is going to care about her anymore and she's going to have to hustle so so hard if she wants to stay in the industry. And if she doesn't... ugh

Like I said, she could have done girlfriend experience escort work and remained super-anonymous while making a LOT more money. I truly hope that for her sake she loves doing mainstream porn. But based on what I've seen and read, I don't think she does at all.

Monotreme

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Registered: 21-05-07

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Re: #pornstarproblems

It's possible to make a 20- or 30-year career in porn (I have a very good friend who has) but it's pretty rare. Everything is great when you're The New Thing but attention spans are short and her star will set.

Speaking of which:

Stars rise and stars fall / But the ones who shine the brightest aren't stars at all / They're the planets just like us and from big to small /
We all shine, shine, shine / We all shine

Liz Phair, Stars and Planets

or, more bitterly and succinctly,

Funny thing about money for sex / You may get rich but you die by it

Last edited by Monotreme (08-10-14 02:43:43)

aven frey

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Re: #pornstarproblems

So it's interesting to me that on another part of this forum we're talking about how porn is good because it normalises bodies and sex and whatever but when we're confronted with one of those bodies, connected to a person who is raw and vulnerable and very very real we're not very comfortable with her decisions to make the porn we be watching.

I personally think Miriams reasons are very valid, financial debt is a big deal especially considering the likelihood that she'll be spat out of college with an expensive degree with a job in a service industry where she'll be paid $3 an hour plus tips to be sexually harassed (80% of women working in American service industries report experiencing sexual harassment!) and serve food! Also, anyone who has witnessed or been in an abusive relationship knows how important financial autonomy is for women.

Working as an escort is actually incredibly dangerous. And I think illegal in most parts of America too. Sex workers are exposed to sexual violence more often and more regularly than anyone else. She clearly doesn't like having sex with older men and as an escort that would be a large part of her market. Also dancing takes particular skills, different to what you need to make porn, it's hard to make money in clubs and it's hard to climb a pole and be good.

Unless you're lucky enough to be born into money with a loving supportive family (for good measure) you gotta make a deal with capitalism. I personally wish I'd started stripping earlier, that I'd used that money to get into the property market earlier, that I didn't have such a huge mortgage and HECS debt and as a consequence had more time to make things I was passionate about. Of course there are consequences but they go both ways, life is never perfect. Miriam seems to understand the end point, she'll have a degree and money and fairly unique experiences and a voice. Her fame will give her a platform, you guys might not think it's the most ideal of platforms but shit it's so, so hard for young women to be heard anyway. I feel like culturally we're starting to show a bit of respect for hustle. I like to think she can ride that wave. She is young but she's not an idiot. Damage happens everywhere, all the time.

The most troubling aspect of this documentary for me was how readily this industry goes ahead and exploits Miriam's youth. It's like it's all they know how to do! She shouldn't have to change, she should have access to a manager who isn't clearly a self serving douche. I actually thought about writing her an email telling her to fire that dude but I realised I know nothing of how any of this works and it's possible that is the best she can do. Perhaps that's why she is interested in making a documentary like this, to humanise the people we use to normalise sex and to jack off to. That's so important if this industry is going to change. Clearly it needs to change. Damage shouldn't happen everywhere, all the time. 

I actually personally would prefer legislation that mandated that sexually explicit performers had to be 21 years of age, across the whole industry, including 'ethical' or 'feminist' porn but I am old these days and know that Joe Francis exists but totes would have been on a pole when I was 18 if I thought I could do it and it would get me a house!

About Joe Francis, and very young women being exploited because they're young...

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/aug/06 … gonewild32

* trigger warning, this article describes a rape, even though Hoffman doesn't name it as such.

Last edited by aven frey (09-10-14 01:53:58)

viva

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Re: #pornstarproblems

Aven I really admire your point of view  and I hope that Miriam gets wise and hustles if she wants to and makes money and makes it good.

But I also think you're mixing worlds a bit. As much as I want there to be, I don't think you can be completely raw and vulnerable, and make a name for yourself in a hustling industry, at the same time. I really hope she can. I really hope I'm wrong. Or maybe she's brilliant, super sharp and wise, and all of this is part of her big plan.

But that's a meta-story and only theoretical. It's not what I see. What I see is a really young and sheltered person who got in way over her head, too fast, too fast, and is now wiggling between the genuine teenage preening and enjoyment of her 15 minutes of fame, defensiveness about her choices (so normal when you are being challenged publicly in a really sexist, condescending and sex-negative society) and the deep fear and exhaustion of making a really big, really public mistake.

Even if it's not right, she has very much narrowed down the options for herself and that's a reality, an important reality. She's putting herself through university at Duke - for what?  She wants to be a lawyer? Good luck. In puritan America, if you want to follow a traditional go to university -> get a degree -> apply for jobs -> climb the ladder career path, her public choices now are going to make it very, very hard on her later.

You're saying that escort work is unsafe, she would have to fuck older men, and not everyone's cut out to be a stripper. Well what she is doing is not safe and I don't think money is a good enough reason - in fact, I believe she's being royally ripped off cause making a bit of quick cash at the expense of her earning-potential in the future is bad business. She is being managed by someone who doesn't seem to have her best interests at heart and she's too young to have the experience to make excellent decisions about her own public persona. She has to fuck older men. There will be drugs and under-the-radar deals, if there aren't already. She is naive and there are men who will and have and will take advantage of her again, as a matter of course. She thinks her book deal is worth $1 million - she doesn't know how this game is played. She is being played and used. It sucks but let's not pretend that industry is nice. There is a legitimate and serious threat here to her future and her life here, because whether we like it or not, sex work is dangerous. All types.

Next point. I don't think Miriam's cut out to be a porn star. She doesn't give me the savvy self-aware, take-no-shit vibe.

Don't get me wrong, I think everyone starts out like that, a bit soft, a bit young, a bit naive. But you don't get to stay that way. The difference is, other women have time to develop their street smarts and their confidence privately, time to make their mistakes, privately.

You say that this kind of expose is good, because it humanizes the actresses in porn, but it totally doesn't. This is one story of a very young and sheltered girl who got real big real fast and then someone followed her with a camera when she was crying! That's just emotional objectification. This is the other side - our "side" who want to promote vulnerability and real emotion in the porn world, using her instead. This girl is too young to represent, she deserved time to grow until she could really make decisions! I don't care if that's condescending. I don't think she's making informed choices. 

If you want to humanize the acctresses in porn, let's watch interviews of the wise, savvy, take-no-nonsense women who are confident and have their shit together, and they can talk about how they balance their work with their own self-care practices and their relationships etc etc etc. But no one is doing that, except the people making queer porn and feminist branded stuff, who show those women laughing and making jokes and being confident and okay. It's a niche market because the world at large, we don't wanna listen to wise women who know their shit, really. We like strong confident men and vulnerable young women, and that's what we keep showing.

Okay I swear I am almost done.

My final point is that I don't think that the worlds of take money make money get money will never intersect with the world of softness and sharing vulnerability. That's true whether you're talking about finance, celebrity, sex-work, blackmarket, drugs and crime, or real estate. What we call a man's world is in actuality a world of greed. When you're talking about get money, you're talking about narrowed focus. You're talking about taking and getting and moving on. There's no space in there for soft whether you're a man or a woman.

'Get money' is a different conversation, a different activity, a different way of looking at the world than the one about sharing and playing and giving and knowing. You can still make money when you focus on sharing and loving - but face it. Not nearly as much.

OKAY SORRY FOR BIG RANT!!!

I love you!!

aven frey

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Re: #pornstarproblems

I agree with much of what you say Viva but I would rather we direct our criticism towards the institution of pornography and or capitalism rather than subject one woman to the indignity of deciding she is too sheltered or vulnerable to make her way in porn. 

I'm not sure I understand your point about money and softness. No capitalism is not soft, that is actually my point. Capitalism as it stands today is at it's heart, exploitative and it subjugates people. I can see Miriam (like many, many women and men in the porn industry, and other industries) being exploited but this isn't her fault. And is it worse than how she would be exploited if she worked in a service industry for so little money like so many other women (and men, but mostly women)?  I don't think Belle Knox has any intention for softness or sharing or playing. Miriam really doesn't seem stupid enough to not realise she isn't Belle. Just because she performs as Belle doesn't mean she isn't Miriam a person who took part in a documentary project for reasons she hasn't and doesn't need to justify to us.

I do strongly disagree with the premise that we should only show strong female voices being strong in pornography and sex work (and I actually see Belle being one of those, though sometimes she is also vulnerable and she is also a non performing person, Miriam). I see the value of this united happy front in the face of cultural stigma and overwhelming narratives of sex workers as victims but I also think there needs to be shades of grey. This is such a complex thing and these are complex people and privileging one type of voice over another never works out. I definitely think we hear the stories of smart, strong women making informed choices in porn, the Stoyas and Courtney Troubles and that chick who just disappeared with all her money and now makes weird industrial music and writes books... what was her name.. Sasha Grey. I also think there's a space for ambiguous stories, stories that make you feel squeamish, stories that show both strength and sadness or even just stories that show sadness. That's how human people are, human people inhabit this porn world. They aren't all just strong savvy men and women who take no shit, all the time, though I guess it makes it easier to watch pornography if that's the only story that is told. Hard people are vulnerable people and soft people are strong. I grew up incredibly not sheltered and I don't see myself as any more equipped to deal with sex work as Miriam at that age. I don't see that as even relevant. 

It's worth noting that this isn't exactly Miriam's voice. The film makers have an agenda here and there is a very specific narrative that as an editor I can see has been carefully crafted. I don't think that this is an untrue representation of Miriam but perhaps it's not every true thing.   

Okay, here's some, irrepressible, strong, take no shit,  sex working women...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdauyFhjaz0

Love this web series.

aven frey

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Re: #pornstarproblems

p.s I love you!!

viva

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Re: #pornstarproblems

Awww so much love! haha.

Arright. It's hard for me to accept "not her fault" without reasoning that it'snot her fault *because* she is young and naive. Not "too sheltered" to make it in porn - I fully believe she can and will make it in porn, if she wants too. But too naive to realize what is happening and to understand the mechanics of having your ego stroked, the way that attention can function like a drug.

I hate playing the age card but I find myself.. I just can't help it. Maybe I am old. Okay I am definitely old. 18 is not too young to fuck, of course, but I think it's too young to be in porn. Barely legal is slang for ripe for exploitation.

The funny thing is I find the documentary so much more exploitative than the porn she's doing.

I think the idea of the documentary is important and interesting for precisely the reason you give, that it is important to show and tell varied stories about sex work, to shift the narrative to blame capitalism, greed, and misogyny instead of blaming sex workers. But it's all muddled up.  I just feel really bad for Miriam. She deserves to be more than an example and the documentary doesn't present her as multifaceted. The narrative story arc about facials and working the guys at a convention and empowerment and cutting and finally Dark Moment of Doubt - it's just more porn, emotional drama porn.

I think to be honest, it's just me. And maybe that's it. Maybe I can't bear the idea of a drama and soul sucking world getting to actually see mine - and that's why I can't bear the idea of everyone looking at Miriam this way, with those eyes. You're saying, she should be able to stand up proud and be herself, and who she truly is is both Belle and Miriam and probably a lot of other things besides. I'm saying, she can't stand up like that, because the world will kill her and it's gonna. And that upsets me, I'm angry and I feel protective. Condescending again...

Maybe I am just less hopeful than you?

Is it really our job - the women, the vulnerable ones, the people who swim against the tide - to bare our souls to change the world? Will a tide of Miriams finally one day open the world's eyes to the cynacism of our greedy dog-eat-dog behaviour? Will it ever really be ok to be ourselves under the public eye?

I think it's more likely that the world is tough and mean and you better watch yourself. If you want to take back the night, carry a knife.

This is just like a rape apologism discussion and I am the one saying girls should watch out for the bad guys and dress carefully in public to avoid drawing the wrong kind of attention. It's so bullshit when I make the analogy and I have often found myself firey and passionately arguing against that very stance.

I think my attitude of pity is just as problematic as an attitude of contempt and via this conversation I am really realizing how very much my ideas and reactions are informed by the nasty culture I grew up in. It's bullshit... so thanks for this discussion. I'm still struggling to reconcile the logic I prefer with the stuff that's been molded into my brain, but working through it like this helps.

I read this article and I liked it: http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/new … s-20140423

aven frey

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Re: #pornstarproblems

It's not you, that documentary is confronting. It's not easy on the mind!

Oh I'm all for 18 year olds are too young to be making porn! Not because 18 year olds are incapable of making good decisions for themselves but because the porn industry is so very much beholden to the huge power discrepancies of patriarchal capitalism. Women are generally socialised to be accommodating and submissive and when Miriam describes a situation where performers are shamed and penalised for setting and enforcing personal boundaries (being difficult on set) I shudder.

I do not think that this documentary is more exploitative than that. Not even close. I don't think it's without problems but this is how Miriam feels about it...

"I think that the documentary told my story beautifully, and I am so glad that I was able to reach people through my open and honest discussions of what it means to be a sexual woman," says Weeks. "I have garnered an incredible response from my fans, who have written me to tell me that I inspired them and that they related to the issues I discussed."

http://reason.com/blog/2014/09/24/belle … k-is-labor

It's not fair to tell someone to be quiet, they're too young and naive to speak because they're not telling the story you want to hear, or have told. It seems to me that Miriam is invested in calling out the contradictions she sees in her worlds, from the cultural misogyny at Duke to the hypocritical practices of the porn industry. No it's not her job to expose her soul to do this, it might harm her but if she's is doing it then please don't tell her to be quiet because she's young and she doesn't know what she's doing, that is harmful too. I think she's smart. I think she knows what she's doing. I mostly think it's not a judgement for us to make. I also think as a society we grossly underestimate women.           

A question, in this thread Viva you've painted a pretty awful picture of how you see the porn industry. How do you reconcile this view with what you said in the thread about relationships and porn?

viva

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I agree with everything you're saying about Miriam. I'm coming around. But there's still a lot of contradictions in this noggin.

I really like what that reason.com article says about a documentary about musicians on tour always has that moment of darkness, human interest, vulnerability - oh, it's not all rock n roll and good times, sometimes I'm sad, sometimes I feel lost, sometimes I miss my family and I'm tired and  feel like I chose the wrong path.

When we see cool musicians do that we feel love for them, we can relate, we feel relief (stars! they're just like us!). But we never doubt that they're doing the right thing. In a moment like that, a common societal response is to support - the urge to say, you can do it! You are successful! this is just a rough patch and everyone has them!!

But then when Miriam shows her dark moment in exactly the same way, mine and many others' reaction is a slow shake of the head, perhaps a single tear - If only she hadn't ruined her life. Now she's seeing the effects of her debaucherous, impulsive ways. Tsk. Tsk. Tsk.

Yuck. It's clear that I actually do disrespect sex work as a profession, deep inside, or at least even if I myself do not disrespect it by choice, I carry levels of prejudice from my societal upbringing which go deeper than I was aware before this conversation. Otherwise I would treat this the same as a  documentary about a young and upcoming and talented and occasionally struggling musician. As you have, Aven.

So, your last point is really telling. My brain will explode. The thing is I like a lot of things I don't like. I'm attracted most by the things I find dumb, boring or abhorrent if I really think about them. I'm attracted to being on the side of toughness and grittiness and big boots and take-'em-or-leave-'em and fishing while not saying much and dying for your country..... but when I think about why I find contradictions.

Because in the end I'm not surly or tough and I hate wearing shoes and I want to talk. A lot. While fishing.

In the end, it's hard to come to terms with this disparity between the culture I raised myself into and who I am turning out to really be, inside. It's kind of hard to love and respect myself, since I'm not Bukowski or a grumpy but obscenely talented top chef or a super powerful ninja shadow-lady. Incidentally, it's hard to respect people like Miriam, cause while I preach vulnerability all the time, it turns out that I don't actually respect vulnerability in others. Part of me finds it embarrassing and boring. Frowny concerned face of deep thought.

The thing is I was raised by capitalism into capitalism and men's words into a man's world. I didn't have sisters or much of a mom or female friends until way later and most of the literature I consumed was created by men. I was a little girl growing up to be a good man but thinking that this was personhood, default-humanity. My role models for how to sexually inhabit my woman's body were porno-bro-chick, virgin blushy gf, or mom. I preferred to be porno so emulating pornography was how I taught myself to be a sexually mature woman. Lots of lovers, no boyfriends. Lots of costumes, locations, and positions. No orgasms.

I am not going to sit here and cry about all of that, I like myself and I like my life and the complicated untangling of self from upbringing and so on and so forth. This stuff is interesting and ok.

but what it means is that I am a little contradiction factory. Pornography was my role model for sex and I had a lot of cool experiences based on that, it's part of me so I love it. And I believe what I said about it being valuable to look sex, porn sex, right in the eye in all its naked, badly lit, male-gaze obvious-ness, and accept it for what it is.

But the industry is so evil and bad and bad light and cheap effects and not good enough so I hate it. But then I am mad because I hate what I love, I hate what is part of me. I grew up and my role model let me down. BOO!

Basically in my head there are two voices (probably more...) and one is Hemingway and says buck up kid, the world is tough and if you can't make it out there, go running to your mama and don't waste anyone's time. Definitely don't let anyone see you cry, because you'll be a pussy, and also they will eat you alive.

And then the other one is like, some kind of smart-but-caring lady voice going, Hemingway's an idiot, hello, it's 2014 and that is just a stupid way to think because you cry all the time and it feels great.

It sucks I don't even have a metaphor-example-name for that lady voice that's how bereft I am of female role models who make sense to me.

I also find it telling that I write "smart but caring." They are indeed mutually exclusive to me and must be linked intentionally otherwise in my mind, they just don't go together.

aven frey

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Re: #pornstarproblems

Oh Viva, what a wonderful post. I feel so many of these things. Also when you say 'smart but caring', those are exactly things that I think you are.

It's a hard ball world, stand tall before the man!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMEViYvojtY

I cry all the time. I consider it a feminist activity.

viva

pretty pretty princess

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Re: #pornstarproblems

haha amazing clip! so many things! where are our lady role models damn it!

artemesia

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Re: #pornstarproblems

you guys are my role models!

---

"You look ridiculous if you dance
You look ridiculous if you don't dance
So you might as well dance."
- Gertrude Stein