the right to read filth

viva · 17-10-13 04:08:57

This is kind of a tough and interesting situation that I would be interested to discuss with the openminded and intelligent folks here.

On Vice recently I read an article about online booksellers freaking out over the upsetting smut being self-published as ebooks turning up on their virtual shelves.

Here is the article.

The concern is about texts detailing stories of incest, rape, abuse and pedophilia, often combining more than one of these borderline topics.

At WH Smith, the response to the availability of these texts has been the extreme shutdown of its entire website. I am sure this comes at great financial loss to WH Smith, which indicates the seriousness of the situation.

I am torn. I believe wholeheartedly in the rights of each bookseller to define what they condone and what they do not and to reserve the right not to sell books that they do not wish to sell.

However I also believe that these stories are a natural result of the darker side of human sexuality. I believe that stories are a healthy way to channel these urges, that there are no victims harmed by the writing or reading of these stories. I will state clearly that my tastes run to the more explicitly "wrong" when it comes to erotic writing, and I have a great deal of fascination for how far my own moral boundaries can be pushed when it comes to the arena of sexual fantasy.

The censorship of these topics runs the gamut from total censorship of any erotic texts, to the blanket censorship of anything which involves certain keywords. As per the article, examples include texts which make mention of "babysitter", "teen", "sister", and "daddy".

Gosh, I don't know what to say. Like I said, I support the booksellers to restrict their content however they wish, as long as they're open about what they're doing. If you want to open up a store that primarily sells books about bombing Australia, or how to cook human flesh, I will think you are weird and gross and probably you will not make any money. But, you have the right to do so.

As long as books are not banned from being sold anywhere, which as we all know is actually a common practice, individual booksellers ought to be allowed to do as they wish.

There is a broader question at hand, and that is the question of whether books about extreme, taboo subjects are the same level of bad as visual media depicting these same actions. Is a rape fantasy shameful to indulge in? What about a daddy-daughter fantasy? Ought we to throw away the baby with the bathwater (sorry, what a terrible turn of phrase considering) when we refuse to sell these texts, by saying not only that we do not condone them, but that you who might enjoy reading or writing them are evil, bad, dirty shameful people?

I am curious about what you guys think.

hartp02 · 17-10-13 11:40:56

My darling Viva,
There are people in 100000 volt in sexuality and there are people in 220 volt in sexuality.
I,m afraid most people are the latter,as it be by religion,education or their own shy nature.

As long as this is the fact in this world people will be afraid of the 100000 volt sex.
Who wants to stick their necks out and be an outsider in the eyes of the avarage?

In my opinion,as long as e.g. children,animals or defenceless people are not abused and forced to things they don't like,
then,
who am I to judge people?

That's why I like this site and its artists-they look for their boundaries with respect for the people performing and watching.

Aaronhalt · 17-10-13 17:30:48

Well, let's start by going back to where this fuss began, which was when a tech news website called The Kernel ran a several part "expose" about these books being sold. When I looked at The Kernel yesterday, other headlines included "How The Guardian Helps Terrorists," a piece arguing for the virtues of fat shaming, and, my personal favorite, "In Defense of Revenge Porn." So basically, fuck them and the horse they rode in on. Or, better yet, have the horse they rode in on fuck the horse's dad.

I think fantasies like this are harmful and dangerous in many cases. I think they perpetuate rape culture in the worst ways. And I don't think porn is a healthy way to deal with them simply because I think the fantasies themselves are fundamentally harmful. And I say this as, you know, a thoroughly kinky dude. Sex is political, your fantasies are political, and these fantasies are harmful.

That said, I wish the sites that proceed to censor these sorts of things did so on those grounds instead of a combination of "ewww" and "ohnos moral panic." And they do so in a broad, uncritical way that involves just whacking anything that might be icky without regard, which deprives authors who haven't done anything wrong of their income. (One site removed all self-published temporarily, thus screwing people like me who don't even write porn.)

I've no problem with a site deciding it doesn't want to sell a particular thing because of moral issues. Free speech isn't an absolute right to publication by all venues; Amazon can decide it doesn't want to sell stuff, and that's fine. But blunt instruments that exist purely to respond to moral panics and bad press are, I think, bad.

viva · 18-10-13 00:14:22

Yeah I read the Kernal article too and dismissed it out of hand for its blatant fear-mongering clickbait attitude. I didn't see their other shining examples of journalism but it seems that they're even worse than I thought.

Aaronholt, your next paragraph gets to the heart of the issue I really want to discuss, although and perhaps because of the fact that it gets real personal.

Are you saying that having/indulging in nonconsensual fantasies is wrong?

Aaronhalt · 18-10-13 00:55:13

viva wrote:

Yeah I read the Kernal article too and dismissed it out of hand for its blatant fear-mongering clickbait attitude. I didn't see their other shining examples of journalism but it seems that they're even worse than I thought.
Aaronholt, your next paragraph gets to the heart of the issue I really want to discuss, although and perhaps because of the fact that it gets real personal.
Are you saying that having/indulging in nonconsensual fantasies is wrong?

No. Indeed, I think it's inevitable that such things are going to exist. Fear and arousal are too closely linked for it not to. Given that, you can't have a world where rape culture exists but rape fantasies don't. Power is sexy. Both losing it and having it.

But there's something different in some of these books. When you get to titles like Virgin Raped by an Intruder and Fucked by her Dog you've moved out of fetishizing the power balance of nonconsent and into fetishizing the violent degradation of women. That's no longer just fetishizing the power dynamic - that's fetishizing seeing women hurt. Likewise, when your cover is a woman in pain as she's being choked... you're not just fetishizing nonconsent there, you're fetishizing violence itself.

And that's a subtle line, and one that is probably in slightly different places for different people. I mean, I think any attempt to make a bright line distinction here is as doomed as trying to figure out what the line between authenticity and performance in masturbation porn is.

I do think there are healthier ways than fetishizing real world violence. BDSM exists. Roleplay exists. It's not even difficult to have sex in which power exchange and consent are played with. If nonconsent turns you on, there are ways to explore it that frame it in ways that engage with the sexy line between fear and arousal as opposed to ways that amount to saying "isn't it sexy when fathers rape their daughters."

viva · 18-10-13 02:17:02

Thanks for expanding... I agree with you to some extent. Putting dark things out into the world certainly brings those dark things into the light, and making them visible makes a statement: "I condone this fantasy (and you can too)." Where one person's ability to draw the line between fantasy and reality will be healthy and strong, another person's darkness will be fed by these images, and that person may go on to reinforce their nasty notions and possibly do real world harm, whether by word or deed.

That's so bad. I wish bad things never happened.

But I think that whether we like it or not, this darkness exists, and people will do bad things, whether or not it is condoned, and they will think about bad things even more than they do them, and they will be expressed in communicative forms. BDSM, roleplay - these things skirt the edges, but they are healthy. We want something sick. We need to know sickness to understand health.

It is human nature to be fascinated by darkness, to carry it, and to embody it. Hiding it, banning it, shutting it up - none of this will change the fact that somewhere, someone, maybe even a nice girl like me, gets turned on by the idea of fathers raping their daughters.

And it's not wrong to be turned on by that, I think. It's not wrong to talk about it. In a way we need to. In a way, many humans - and I believe humanity in general - need to push every boundary available. If it's innocent we need to hurt it. If it's beautiful we need to defile it. If it bleeds we need to bite it.

We make movies about the outer limits of sadistic torture, people climbing in pits of syringes to save their families, a girl with no eyes curled up around a fetus in a jar, a ghost that steals internal organs, a boy that stabs butterflies, butterflies that eat memories, teenagers butchered by rotten-toothed chainsaw-wielding families, dentists that pull out all your teeth while your chained to the chair... oh, yes, we do.

And these things are horrible to me. Abhorrent. But I wouldn't stop people from making these films. From between my cupped fingers, I even watch them. After all, I'm the girl who grew up with "Virgin Raped by an Intruder" stuffed between my mattress and my box spring. Who am I to judge?

Freedom of expression is so incredibly valuable, to avoid arbitrary lines being drawn by those in power. In Australia, for example, decency laws of what is allowed to be expressed in media would shock you with their restrictiveness. For us, consent is a magic key, and we think this is reasonable. For Australia's classification board, ropes and piss are massive no-no's. And just try to make cheerleader porn.

So writing about it... the dark, the violent, the non-consensual, the sick, the wrong, the sadism and abuse... I just can't say anyone is not allowed. I can't even say that expressing those feelings is wrong. I can't even say it's harmful - because I believe that it's there, regardless of the expression. And I believe that the expression of our collective darkness is the equivalent of sitting down and bitching to your boyfriend vitriolically until you cry, and he lets you rant, and you apologize, and he says its ok, and you feel much better.

If he just makes you feel like shit for being a bitch instead of supporting you through your darkness, you just swallow all your feelings, you feel guilt, resentment, you push it down, you sit on it. You make an egg, wrap it in hair, dunk it in tea, whatever, you eat your venom, and swallow, and it doesn't get better when you do that. It gets way worse.

It would be so good if none of us had bitchy feelings or dark attractions to the profaning of the sacred, but we are young, and probably collectively hormonal. We are creepy weird jerks and denying that part of ourselves won't make us magically sweethearts.

Aaronhalt · 18-10-13 03:11:02

Absolutely, freedom of expression is important. But equally, so is the freedom to say "fuck that, I'm not being seen anywhere near that." Freedom of expression includes the right to not publish something. I mean, if the government passed a law banning rape porn? Holy fuck no.

But this isn't the government; it's Amazon. Amazon gets to not publish something if they want to, and maintaining that right is as essential as maintaining the right to say it. Ostracization is a form of speech too.

I mean, I'm fine with saying that it's harmful, because I genuinely believe it is. I believe, absolutely, without a moment of doubt or hesitation, that the existence of violent rape porn normalizes victim blaming, slut shaming, and rape culture. I think it makes the world a materially worse place. Not necessarily in the straightforward "people escalate from reading Virgin Raped by an Intruder to becoming virgin-raping intruders themselves" way, but in a more subtle way.

Do I think the people who read this shit overlap with the people who do things like argue that FetLife shouldn't allow people to discuss claims of abuse, effectively silencing discussion of it in the entire BDSM community? Do I think people who read this shit are among the 39% of male high school students who answered a survey saying it was acceptable for a man to force a woman to have sex if he's spent a lot of money on her? Or the 54% who say it's OK if "she has led him on?" Do I think the prevalence of material like this contributes to decisions not to prosecute rape cases? Yes. I absolutely do. I think anything that suggests that rape and sexual violence is anything other than horrific contributes to the practice of ignoring it. I think that if you teach someone to get off on women being beaten, you're creating someone who isn't going to lift a finger to help the women who actually are. I think you help create a world that teaches men they can get away with it.

And that is harm. That's harm worth calling out and condemning. There are ways to engage with our creepy weirdness other than reveling in it unproblematically and without engaging in its consequences. You can interrogate fetishes while fulfilling them. Even dark ones.

viva · 18-10-13 04:24:07

Like I said before, I totally agree that independent distributors ought to have the right to not sell anything at all, regardless of their reasoning. So we agree there.

I can't thank you enough for engaging with me on this difficult topic with your customary non-judgmental even-handedness. I think conversations like this are really valuable, and moreover, talking to you about this is personally valuable for me. I am listening.

I think our basic disagreement lies in and around the concept of whether what we put into the world changes the world, or whether shedding light on what is already in the world helps to, as you say, interrogate these fantasies even while indulging them.

To me, silencing discussion of abuse in the fetlife forums is exactly the kind of behaviour I am arguing against. I am against the silencing of any discussion at all.

This is a chicken and egg situation. Did rape culture come about because people are free to publish their rape fantasies? Or do rape fantasies come about when you raise children in an environment saturated in sexism, bigotry, outmoded sexuality and rape apologism?

Yes, you're right. There's something jubilant and gleeful in the ASSTR archives, where these taboo topics run rampant. A feeling of a place where "we can get away with it", a community that does not judge people for writing out the worst of their thoughts, for sharing them. That's scary, but it's also understandable. They are repressed. The things they're discussing - they, most of them, know that they're wrong things. They know that there are very few places where they can go to express them. And the writers are not only men. Some of the "worst" of this stuff is written by women like me. And they are often preceded by disclaimers like this one:

"Some folks apparently have trouble distinguishing between fantasy and reality. These stories are fantasies. It didn’t happen. Never will. And anyone who attempts to do in real life all or any of the things depicted in the stories needs to be hanged, then drawn and quartered, and then turned over to the local cops for the harshest penalties the law allows. Now that we’re clear on what’s what, and what’s not, read on."

and

"These are works of fantasy fiction. They contain graphic scenes of man on boy nonconsensual sex. These are fantasies only. Rape is torture and is not condoned by the authors in any way. If such scenes offend you then do not continue to read. "

These disclaimers are mere words, but they indicate a consciousness of the necessity of separating fantasy from reality, and they are educative of the standards we wish our peers to hold. And they come hand in hand with the exploration of that darkness which we crave.

Are these stories more ok if they have these types of disclaimers, much like Kink.com's depictions of violent abuse which end and begin with interviews in which the performer consents explicitly to his or her abuse?

I truly do not think there is a perfect overlap with people who write and read extreme fiction, and the highschool students who say it's okay if she led him on. Those highschool students are more likely to be watching Brazzers. Not rape - but as close as we can get to it without absconding to a social hiding place. I reckon Brazzers is worse than those titles we've discussed - because it is mainstream acceptable as "porn." Where as those titles are being segregated from "porn" in the eyes of these booksellers.

I don't think people who answer the surveys like that are thinking deeply enough about rape to write out a fantasy - they are merely inundated by a culture that tells them that it's ok, if she led him on.

The blame for that, to me, falls on much more mundane behaviour than the writing down of extreme boundary pushing fiction. It's in the streets, it's falling from our mothers' lips when she tells us not to walk home alone at night, and tells our brothers nothing, it's in the magazines, it's on tv. It's everywhere.

We fight this with education, with discussion, with slutwalks, with Hollaback, with empowerment, with art. With good porn.

But I suppose there is a basic thought process as well here, which you've expressed succinctly, of preferring to delete or stem the flow of the bad stuff. The bad porn, which reinforces our socially-held sexist stereotypes, basically almost all mainstream porn. It's bad, it's bad stuff. Even when there's no rape, there's overtones of it, of objectification, of women-as-sex-servants, overt racism, whore vs madonna - this porn exists because most people still think this way.

In my worldview, the way to change and adjust this paradigm is not to delete or stop people from making this kind of porn. It's to make more, much more, of what I find beautiful and good and sexy and hot. To add to and overflow. To tell people to make more, to speak louder, to drown out the backward mainstream in a new wave of conscious, sex-positive media.

I am coming around to a new point of view. I agree that when we raise our voices, in whatever form that takes, we take on a certain responsibility. I think that publishing these stories is okay - but with the caveat of the disclaimer, the interview, the kernal of consent which takes rape and turns it into kink.

With Gala and Aven, I wrote a short film called "Taken", which is an abduction fantasy. This fantasy plays with consensual non-consent. Lines are blurred. Our protagonist must wait under a certain streetlight at night, to be picked up by her lover, or not. She endures the humiliation of being touched by men who come to see if she's ok, who turn predatory at her silent acquiescence. She doesn't say no. She doesn't say yes to them. Her lack of explicit consent when faced by these strangers is a greater part of a consensual session play. The film ends with a resounding confirmation of her desire for this process.

This film won a feminist porn award.

I'm not bragging, I found this astounding. People want to talk about rape and non-consent in a healthy manner, they do. They need it, to counterbalance the horrific reality of 54% of high school boys condoning rape if "she led him on". They need these things brought to light, if only so they can tell the difference between reality and fantasy.

Maybe people who read this shit (like me) are part of the problem, but so are people who disapprove of them for wanting to read it - because shame begets silence, and silence is what allows people to get away with this in real life. It is what allows the truly dark-hearted to mingle indistinguishably with those who find erotic fascination in extremes.

If we can talk about this, just like with "tamer" mainstream porn, which is considered the norm, we can make what's available actually good. Which means that people like me won't have to be reading the extremely seedy, extremely wrong stuff, or watching super creepy "she needs money" porn to find something that resonates with what exists inside - we could be watching and reading stories and films which depict dark fantasies with disclaimers, consent consciousness, and - dare I say it? - whole heartedness.

Is this a possibility?

Aaronhalt · 18-10-13 05:21:08

I think, from your description of Taken, that it sounds like exactly what I mean when I say that these dark desires can be interrogated when they're engaged with. From your description, at least, the protagonist weighs the choice and stands underneath the streetlight, accepting the humiliation within the context of a consensual action. That's not rape culture affirming in the least - that's dealing with the psychological contours of consent, arousal, fear, and desire. Which is the difference, to me.

And that's, ultimately, what, for me, the fantasy needs. To not be about unproblematically depicting brutal rape as an enjoyable spectacle. For me, the word "taboo" is important here, because the taboo isn't the same as the forbidden. Taboo is knowing. It's aware of its transgressions. The awareness is part and parcel of it. And to engage with the taboo. There needs to be more stuff that does htat, as you say. Stuff not just with disclaimers (which can be hollow at best - the Kink.com example is key. Reports from performers suggest that abusive conditions are rampant and that consent is... not straightforward), but with consent consciousness and a willingness to acknowledge the conflicts and contradictions within the fantasy.

As I said, there's not a bright line. There's rape porn that's erotic and sexy and vibrant. And there's rape porn that's doing real harm in the world. I can point at specific things that tend to make it one or the other, but there's no absolute definition or category, and there's a lot of gray area. Plenty of stuff I honestly don't know whether is harmful or not.

But yes. More good porn. Then again, are there many problems in the world where "more good porn" is not a useful solution?

viva · 18-10-13 05:42:30

Hey Aven, are we able to share Taken here?

The problem with Taken is that it's not wank material - not to me, at least. Maybe if it were written out, with a lot more details... and in fact, this is my most successful wank material finding method, is just to make the damn stuff myself!

Aaronhalt · 18-10-13 06:06:18

Mine as well, often. Personally speaking, I'm terribly fascinated by mind control erotica. I find the questions of creating desire terribly fascinating, and to be an interesting metaphor in general. Much of the genre is a cesspit of horrible rapey fantasies in which men objectify women in the basest ways imaginable, but there are some terribly interesting gems.

But often the best and most interesting bits aren't wank material directly. It's stories with one or two moments that just lodge in my brain somehow. My favorite stories tend to be my favorites because of one or two paragraphs that are just indescribably hot to me. But what usually happens with those stories and my brain isn't entirely in the story. It's the thought process it provokes. Which often is making the damn thing myself, albeit not in a permanent form - just in the form of fantasies and headspace.

And that, for me, is the difference. I don't get off on images of women being forced into things they don't want to do. I get off on a fantasy that plays with the limits of desire and revels in the ambiguities and contradictions involved.

Which is for me the heart of the distinction between good porn and bad porn. Bad porn revels in problematic and harmful images. Good porn revels in the questions those images raise.

A final observation is that it is surely possible to use bad porn to create good porn in your own head. You can read or watch ultra-seedy stuff and create your own internal version and added details, tarrying in the problematic spaces it opens up. But I think there's still a meaningful difference to be found in the porn itself. Good porn invites those readings. Bad porn can have those readings applied, but they become almost like slash fiction - subversive readings that actively rebel against the text.

(Though there's an interesting implication here, which is that good porn, to some extent, might need bad porn as a thing to rebel against.)

Also, if you can share Taken here, I'd be terribly fascinated. (I mean, I'd love to acquire copies of any of the Sensate stuff...) Please Aven? Pretty please?

Last edited by Aaronhalt (18-10-13 06:10:26)

aven frey · 18-10-13 07:43:33

Well speaking of censorship Vimeo just cancelled our account so I can't even send you to a showreel.

Here's a nice blog though http://sensatefilms.tumblr.com/

We'll resurrect all the video links when we've explained to Vimeo that we're creative genius' like Kanye West.

So let's talk about Lolita, the book. I've had countless arguments with someone about what that story is, or more specifically what it isn't, an example of a sexually precocious girl. If the meaning of such a subversive text can still be bent so far to the will of the reader, if that reader is heavily invested in a particular meaning how do we draw lines about what is and isn't harmful when it comes to fiction. In my opinion that book is excellent and should absolutely have been written and published but I also believe that it has contributed to rape culture. Roman Polanski.

I have no answers but I do think it's worth noticing, along with what is being said, who is speaking, to whom they are speaking and how complex power dynamics affect the action of words. Is there pornography that is hate speech and hurts the world? I'm certain there is. How do we define it as such and what do we do about it? I'm much less certain about that.

http://philosophybites.com/2012/07/rae- … peech.html

Dear Vimeo

We're really good and contribute to the cultures. I promise.

Yours in creative delusions.

Everybody.

Last edited by aven frey (18-10-13 07:45:27)

harcos2013 · 31-10-13 15:48:41

I'm probably more of a 100 volts in sexuality (smiling now). With that disclaimer, I'm on the side of those who enjoy graphic depictions of sexuality - as long as those depictions are not primarily about degrading one (or all) of the participants. I visit video porn sites, and I read (what I hope are) literary erotica. I enjoy those things, a lot. I think they're "okay", unharmful, and should be available to those of us who want them. But I think that pedophilia, rape, and violent sex are eventually harmful not only to those who are depicted, but to those who read or view them frequently. I think there's a definite and rather clear line between depictions of sexuality (not just sex acts) for purposes of erotic enjoyment and communication on the one hand, and video and "writing" which panders to involuntary and damaging acts.

adragonfly · 30-11-13 08:28:47

Somewhat OT, but related to the subject of sex in literature, I was wondering if Viva follows the Bad Sex Awards.

viva · 02-12-13 00:11:19

No I have not as of yet?

jack_justjack · 06-12-13 23:09:47

I'm a firm believer in free speech but that doesn't mean book sites should be forced to sell whatever. There are plenty of site where people can go to get whatever they want. Furthermore, people have a right to not have adult oriented material forced upon them. Shutting down an entire site; however, is a bit ridiculous.

asexual_fred · 23-03-14 22:06:06

To start, I'm very openminded, though not intelligent, unless ya wanna talk 18 wheelers, , or just read how I write. Me thinks i'm gonna cry. Kleenex anyone?

To me, censorship is getting way out of hand. Seems like we are going back in time. It seem's so simple, ya don't like it, don't read it. Is it really true ebook sellers and the like are being forced to sell such "filth" as mentioned? That's a hard pill to swallow.

Aaronhalt....fantasies being harmful? With that hosed up logic, I especially would be locked up, as would millions of others I think. People thinking that are the problems of the world, regardless of the fantasy involved. With that attitude, many tv shows, movies, music, etc. would be gone. Heck the bible too. lmao.

Omg, is my favorite story site lite-erotic_ will be closed? Go on, you can call me "sick", but Mumsy/Sonsy stories are my faves, not that I'd ever act it out.

As for shutting down sites go, a female family member who is rather open minded, feels IFM should be closed. You women are being extremely exploited, and us men folk that come here need help. Too rich.

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the right to read filth

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