feminist discussion for fierze

viva · 29-01-13 03:15:54

hey fierze,
I have brought this topic to another thread, so we don't clog up the 'why did you join' one. Please excuse my rambling, I did not go to school for this stuff but I do think about it a lot.

fiersze wrote:

But when you just hear the word "feminism" the first thing that comes to mind is that it's about women only. Maybe even against men. It should be something more akin to "gender studies" (as opposed to "feminist studies").

Feminism is a cool word to describe a great thing - a culture, study, and community of people getting together to promote the furthering autonomy and equal status of women, in a world where women have, historically as a group, experienced a lesser status dictated by a system in which men hold and have held most positions of power and authority, as well as had their voices and opinions honored first over those of women.

The world looks a little different now than when feminism was born, and feminism itself has gone through many permutations over time and now can describe any number of attitudes, but for many reasons I don't have time to go into now, feminism is still, maybe more than ever, a vital part of our society for everyone, and not just female-identified people. As you say, men are also trapped, punished, and pigeonholed by the same tropes and stereotypes which functioned for so long to keep women from being equal.

We all suffer from inequality and racism and discrimination and unkindness and unbalanced structures of power, but we don't all suffer the same way. It's not the same to feel resentful guilt because someone was afraid of you, as to be honestly afraid, for example. It wasn't the same to feel angry that the financial weight of your household rested solely on your head, as to know that you are completely trapped in that household, unable to take a job even if you wanted to.

Both sets of feelings suck, and both sets are brought on by the same flawed system - but the anger and frustration/impotence of the privileged cannot compare to that of the powerless, who cannot, without a structured community of support, even raise his/her voice about their woes. That's why feminism exists, and why it's not called sociology - to create a safe space for female-identified voices to be heard, loud and clear.

So feminist studies (or women's studies) are one thing. Gender studies is a whole other topic, and a good one too - the same way sociology and black culture/history studies are both good, and distinct, modes of grouping and talking about the human experience in society. It is also very important now, more than ever, to think about a broadening conversation about gender and social roles alongside the bubbling excitement of progressive feminism, queer theory, race discourse, etc.

You are not the first man to question where he fits in to these discussions and I myself, having been so lucky to grow up in a world where I can vote and drive and have sex and speak up and ask people to dance and open doors for them, and wear pants, or skirts, and be pregnant, and be successful in my personal dreams and not get married and still have a car door opened for me, I question the same. We can question together - but part of this conversation of privilege and power, involves learning to accept your own - and all of us have to do it. We all have privilege. So if you're a well-off white man, work out what that means, read about the experiences of all the different kinds of people who aren't well-off white men, try to understand them, and join in with sensitivity and intelligence. The conversation's not looking to end any time soon.

Aven I invoke you,come discuss this with us!

Fiersze · 31-01-13 03:19:58

Sorry if I may sound too academic, feel free to point out parts where I'm not clear

Ok, you're right of course, my mistake was to invoke the term gender STUDIES.

You see, if you treat feminism as a scientific inquiry, then of course it has it's place precisely because there are, no doubt about that, discriminative inequalities specifically tied to being a female. The question of bearing children for example and how this influence women's position in the job market, how they are treated, how they are rewarded for this additional "work" and so on, and so on.

But we also use the word feminism in a different context. A world view. When you say "I am a feminist" you don't usually mean that "I'm a scientist who pursues questions of the cultural or socioeconomic position of women in today's world". You mean a certain world view, with practical diagnoses and solutions for culture as a whole, certain value system etc. It's a project of building a culture rooted in feminine values and overthrowing dominance of male values. In my opinion, while the dominant "masculinity" of our culture is out of the question, I don't think the solution is about balance between feminity and masculinity or replacing some aspects of one with the other: our very notions of feminity and masculinity, of gender, have to be rethinked, becouse that opposition itself takes it's roots in the old systems of inequality and stereotypization.

Also another aspect of the problem is, that there are many struggles: racial, economic, feminist, etc. and there is big debate as to whether one of them has priority or each are equal (for example in the old times Karl Marx would say that the struggle of the working class takes priority over others, which are just by-products).

viva · 31-01-13 05:05:15

Don't worry, I think you'd be hard-pressed to overword me.

I think your use of the word scientific is a little fast-and-loose, I'm not sure that the social sciences qualify as being more valid than the separation you've created between them and a 'cultural worldview'. As in, you've said that feminism as a science is of course valid but - and here's where I'm not sure I'm following - feminism as a personal philosophy is not?

I would love to continue this debate but I'm not sure I understand the nature of your opposition. I think you are saying that having the term 'feminism' as a core or satellite of one's own personal philosophy precludes the evolution of that term - feminism - itself.

I would have to disagree, I think there's lots of space for growth, careful consideration of evolving social patterns, and even space for a movement away from the polarizing binary gender schematic which does influence the core ideas of feminism.

fiersze wrote:

"I don't think the solution is about balance between feminity and masculinity or replacing some aspects of one with the other: our very notions of feminity and masculinity, of gender, have to be rethinked, becouse that opposition itself takes it's roots in the old systems of inequality and stereotypization."

So yeah, I agree with this.

The other thing you say about all struggles and which ones matter more and stuff, oh dear. Whatever matters most to you is what matters most to you and there's no use wandering up to a feminist and saying, your concerns are now irrelevant, move on to worrying about consumerism.

I don't believe there is an objective value judgement of what matters most, except maybe in retrospect. History will show us our priorities as a whole much more clearly than we can understand now, but the fact is, progress IS happening. The people are acting on their own priorities, and insisting on inevitable change. Just what that means for the future of humanity, well, we'll have to wait and see.

But hopefully we'll be making and watching really great porn while we wait.

SongofMyself · 31-01-13 12:59:45

I'm dizzy.

haraggan · 31-01-13 13:15:21

viva wrote:

Aven I invoke you,come discuss this with us!

Aw, no invitation to me? I don't blame you - even I get annoyed at how wordy I can be!

But this is a debate I've been part of for decades, so I can't resist... Let me try to list my points in some kind of order so I don't ramble too much.

1: Science vs. worldviews. This is subject for book after book in itself. First, we have to remember that science, itself, is a worldview. What we think of as science - western rationalism, is based on a whole set of culturally specific assumptions. The best description of these assumptions and the history of scientific thought as a worldview is probably found in Nietzsche. As for feminisms' place in the scheme, I think one thing we need to bear in mind is that feminism is a set of theories, a body of knowledge, an area of study, and - maybe most importantly - something we practice. In discussing feminism we have to remember that it is a struggle, a theory articluated with and through numerous practices which have been developed, changed, refined, overthrown, re-examined for over a century. All worldviews exist through practice, so when one calls feminism a worldview it also means that it is a lived experience. Feminism as a personal philosophy is part of that lived experience of a worldview, and contributes to the constant reshaping of it.

2: Feminism and men. Tricky. One of my favourite theorists, Samuel Delany, said he could not call himself a feminist because he was a man, and men by definition cannot be feminists. "It's not my struggle," he wrote. He didn't meant to be dismissive, and I don't want to simplify Delany's complex thoughts. But in the end he felt - and many female scholars and activists agree - that only women can be feminists and men (like Delany) can be supportive. I don't really agree (more about that in point three). For one thing, that attitude does reinforce the claims people sometimes make about feminism being "anti-men."

I was part of a panel on feminism at a meeting of the Society of American/Popular Culture a long time ago and after the papers the discussion got bogged down into a lot of lamenting by teachers about being unable to get their students to accept feminism because it was anti-man. Eventually I had to invoke Wittgenstein (oh no! The dreaded Cudgel of Wittgenstein!): "All philosphical problems are actually linguistic problems." There are two terms being mistakenly used interchangeably: "men" and "male." "Men" are a simple biological category - although even that concept has been infinitely problematized since I was part of that discussion! - whereas "male" is a cultural constuction of masculinity made up of traits, norms, behaviours, expectations and so on. It's quite possible - and very necessary - to argue against the current definition of the latter without being against the former.

3: Choosing your struggles. Yeah, I agree. We have to because nobody has all the energy, time, money and influnce in the world. These days I devote myself primarily to animal rights, but I can prioritize one thing without completely forgetting all the other worthy struggles. There was an excellent song back in the nineties by the band Consolidated called "Unity of Oppression" which argued that all forms of oppression are linked, and I do agree with that. For instance, mysogyny and homophobia are very related - so are mysogyny and the treatment of the environment. I could elaborate but the hook is approaching and I'm hoping it will be self-evident. So when you prioritize the fights that matter most to you, you're still contributing to the general, world-historical battle against oppression.

Or, um, to say it all more concisely, "what Viva said".

Sorry for butting in.

Cheers,

Matt

Last edited by haraggan (31-01-13 13:22:26)

viva · 01-02-13 00:51:32

I Dont Know What To Say I Am Just Bursting With Excitement And Happiness.

viva · 01-02-13 01:28:46

I can't type in all caps? thats a huge part of my expressive style.

I find it hard to articulate my joy and relief when a man-gendered person says things like this Matt-man-gendered person has just said. I know it's ridiculous, but I carry guilt over feminism - "I'm sorry" is always on the tip of my tongue, the back of my mind, a hunt of begging for scraps, a bit of desperation for someone, anyone (man) to please believe me. A confused jumble of not-sure-if-I'm-still-allowed-to-fight - after all don't I have a job? Are we happy yet? These things I observe... maybe I'm just crazy. Maybe I should relax, have some sex, drink a beer, have a giggle, shake my skirt? B E G R A T E F U L.

Yeah Matt, you went over similar topics to the ones I visited, but your support and considered, interesting explanations of why Y O U think about those same things has a lot of value to me. When you apologise, it's like you're sorry for bringing me chocolate. Don't apologise - I L I K E I T.

And I like everything you said, but here are my highlights of your post, just for fun.

we have to remember that science, itself, is a worldview. What we think of as science - western rationalism, is based on a whole set of culturally specific assumptions.

"All philosphical problems are actually linguistic problems." There are two terms being mistakenly used interchangeably: "men" and "male." .... It's quite possible - and very necessary - to argue against the current definition of the latter without being against the former.

all forms of oppression are linked... For instance, mysogyny and homophobia are very related - so are mysogyny and the treatment of the environment. ... So when you prioritize the fights that matter most to you, you're still contributing to the general, world-historical battle against oppression.

Sigh. Happy.

haraggan · 01-02-13 07:53:48

Thank you, Viva, your response means a lot to me. I'll avoid skidding into a personal history of why I feel like my opinions are always unwanted!

You know, I think some of those conflicted emotions you feel about expressing your feminism are the result of current discourse about feminism. Men *want* women to feel like they have enough, to feel guilty for wanting more. Is anyone else here old enough to remember those Virginia Slims ads - "You've come a long way, baby." How fucking patronizing! It is heartening to see the progress made by feminism, but yes, we must continue to be feminists. Men and women are both demeaned by a "compromise" of "OK, you can work, and you've got the vote now, and can serve in the military and marry according to your own desires, but we'll keep on raping you - and making jokes about it - and paying you less, and claiming you don't know how to drive, and so on."

And, for that matter, making porn that marginalizes you. So whatever else you are doing in your life, Viva, I see the evidence of your continued and lovely passion for the cause, for feminism as a community and lived experience. Horray!

Cheers,

Matt

flats · 03-02-13 00:51:03

Can I just say that I'm new here and think it's beyond rad that this discussion is happening on a porn site's forum. So happy I finally splurged and joined! Probably can't afford it for super long, but relishing in it for now...

Also, Viva, I watched a bunch of your interviews yesterday with contributers and really enjoyed them. Reminded me of myself and friends sitting around talking about sex.

Kate

viva · 04-02-13 00:30:08

Flats we're super happy to have you too! I reckon I'm bumbling at best when it come to interviews, but I am so glad you enjoyed them! If you want some serious depth, though, check out Gala's interviews - amazing.

Matt, the taboo of the nasty no-fun feminist is stronger in me than the taboo against being a vapid man-pleasing eyelash twitterer. It is hard for me to reconcile the idea that I simply am what I am - at once fun, flirty, and quick to call someone out on some sexist bullshit - with my tendency to let my detractors define me. It's really fucked up.

Example, I go to a bit of a hippie festival every year for new years, there's no music besides acoustic, the main activities center around workshops run by the festival attendees. I went to a workshop about back pain where this older man dude was talking about joints and things. He was casually sexist, during his lecture referring to men as men, and women as little girls. When he eventually said that women should stand straight like models, like they're holding books on their head, and that men should stand straight and proud, I'd had enough. I wanted to confront him - I wanted to approach him with respect and ask him if he knew how alienating his language was - but I chickened out. I just didn't want to be seen as the tsk-tsk-er, the nag, the party pooper. I wanted... blah and ugh.... I wanted him to like me. Gross and sigh.

I still haven't worked out how to deal with that, when it falls to me to call someone out for bad behaviour. I'm quite good at yelling at people in passing, and quite good at conversation in general, but wihen it comes to being a woman and calling someone out for sexism, I struggle to understand how to do so with grace, how to structure my statements so that I get the maximum potential of being actually listened to.

haraggan · 04-02-13 18:20:03

viva wrote:

Matt, the taboo of the nasty no-fun feminist is stronger in me than the taboo against being a vapid man-pleasing eyelash twitterer. It is hard for me to reconcile the idea that I simply am what I am - at once fun, flirty, and quick to call someone out on some sexist bullshit - with my tendency to let my detractors define me. It's really fucked up.
...
I still haven't worked out how to deal with that, when it falls to me to call someone out for bad behaviour. I'm quite good at yelling at people in passing, and quite good at conversation in general, but wihen it comes to being a woman and calling someone out for sexism, I struggle to understand how to do so with grace, how to structure my statements so that I get the maximum potential of being actually listened to.

Viva, I know what you're saying, but I don't want to let you beat yourself up about it. Look at those two taboos and where they come from - one of them comes from feminism, which is relatively new and still learned from only a handful of sources, and the other comes from patriarchy, which has been going on for as long as any of us can remember and whose values we learn from almost every source of acculturation. That will defnitley be the stronger one. The image of the "no-fun feminist" is created to prevent women from wanting to identify with feminism and is, in addition to being utter bullshit (I mean, once you get past Andrea Dworkin and Catherine McKinnon), frighteningly successful. But look at yourself - you're doing crucial work for a website about masturbation! How much more fun can it get? No matter what you ever say or do (or don't say or do), even if there were one tiny thread of truth to that myth, it could never apply to you.

But I know it's always a struggle. My first anthropology professor, Robert F. Murphy (who went on to become my guru), in my first anthropology course, described a cartoon from The New Yorker which showed a man standing in a space the shape of a cell. Three of the walls were missing and there is one wall of bars, and he's at the wall of bars, holding them in typical prisoner pose, looking mournful. That, Murphy said, is culture: even when we know about it, we aren't free. But enough knowledge gives us room to dance in our chains. Keep dancing. If enough people join you, for long enough, the chains might fall off. But at least you'll have fun no matter what. But don't feel weak for being trapped; everybody is. it's not even always a bad thing.

And then it also goes back to the issue of choosing your battles. Do you have to be the Feminist Avenger, personally correcting every sexist in the world? I hope nobody is forcing you to be that person. You do what you do, and you set a brilliant example for men and women alike, and what more could be asked of you? Even Superman doesn't manage to create a crime-free Metropolis.

Besides, it's fairly sensible and, I think, has more to do with our own avoidance of confrontation than any failure of your feminist principles. Sometimes, if you make a scene, you make more enemies for your cause than you do friends. Sometimes you can get beaten up.

So, you're glorious, you're doing plenty for the cause, and, where you think you see personal failure, you may just be seeing common sense or, at worst, the bars most people don't even see at all.

On a mostly unrelated note: the opening shot of Viva la Femme, Part 2 is more beautiful than the sunrise over Edinburgh.

Cheers,

Matt

Last edited by haraggan (05-02-13 18:55:41)

#1 29-01-13 03:15:54

feminist discussion for fierze

#2 31-01-13 03:19:58

Re: feminist discussion for fierze

#3 31-01-13 05:05:15

Re: feminist discussion for fierze

#4 31-01-13 12:59:45

Re: feminist discussion for fierze

#5 31-01-13 13:15:21

Re: feminist discussion for fierze

#6 01-02-13 00:51:32

Re: feminist discussion for fierze

#7 01-02-13 01:28:46

Re: feminist discussion for fierze

#8 01-02-13 07:53:48

Re: feminist discussion for fierze

#9 03-02-13 00:51:03

Re: feminist discussion for fierze

#10 04-02-13 00:30:08

Re: feminist discussion for fierze

#11 04-02-13 18:20:03

Re: feminist discussion for fierze

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