You are not logged in.
Lately I have been thinking a lot about porn and promotion. It seems like lots of folks be doing it at the moment, which makes sense - it's winter, we're quiet, we have lots of time to hang out on the internet, ensure that the pokers we put into various conversational fires keep turning.
One incredible woman I'm lucky to canoodle with has made a decision recently to take the plunge in that direction - Gala, getting her second-name stripes and launching a campaign of intentional branding and promotion to make sure that people- lots of people- know her name. And very, very soon, lots of people will.
Promotion, marketing, branding - all of these concepts are rejected by my little bohemian heart when it comes to myself, or with the things I'm passionate about. But... why? Why are these things bad? Is there something inherently nasty about shouting your name and telling people they're going to love you? Does it have to do with a slippery slope - the ends to which you might go to achieve your means? Or pride, the sin. Or the 2-dimensional romanticism of the humble, silent pauper? These reasons get more boring the more I explore them.
The more I think about it, the more I am starting to doubt that - the inherent uncoolness of "marketing". It seems to me that the reason marketing becomes uncool is because a) someone thought they were too good for it in the first place, but then caved when the money showed up (lame) or b) the product or service advertised is mind-numbingly mundane and so the process of having it shoved in my face becomes mindnumbingly irritating.
When I think of Gala promoting herself, I feel nothing but excitement - of course, I'm incredibly proud of her. Gala produces work and offers services which I find to be about as far from mundane as the spectrum allows, and so I (as a consumer) actually benefit from her marketing, no matter how aggressive. Being reminded about Gala every day can only be a good thing. I'm not just trying to flatter you, dear - I believe that what you got, is what this world needs.
Because Gala never pretended she was too good to take anyone's money, it was and will be impossible for her to sell-out. Because she never put anyone else down, she's free to transform in any way she pleases over the coming years. It's a perfect business model, and it's perfect because it was never a business model - just an organic process that happened to be a money-making machine. Well, Gala, that depends on you - but I am confident that if you're gunning to make it big, you can. People will know your name, if you want them to.
I'm clearly meandering and it may be a long, long time before I have any sense of continuity when it comes to this topic - I am far from formally trained to understand the nitty-gritties of business. I guess my main wonder is this. I find what Gala is doing to be ethical, partly because she markets only herself and implicates no one else in that. So she is free to reap 100% of the award, and 100% of the cash prizes. (mmm... cash prizes) All of that without compromising an iota, so, like, major win.
I wonder if a business, any profit-making business, is capable of promoting itself with a similar consciousness, without glitz, without dishonesty? Is there a way for a business to market itself effectively without ultimately coming off as a wanky seedy needy lie-fest? Even Amanda Palmer was criticized for Kickstarting her album because "she's already rich". Everyone's confused and suspicious of Google. No one trusts you if you make money. What's up with that, and is having money a legitimate concern?
Alright I've gone on long enough. You guys should totally discuss this with me because I'm all over the place here. And I haven't even really gotten started - this is just skimming the surface of my thoughts on this topic. La. Think about it, and meanwhile go buy Gala presents. She deserves them.
Offline
Please also put yourself on gala's mailing list. I've got a newsletter going out next week!
Thanks for this Viva - you are all the sweetness. There's a lot of meat in here and I'm a vegetarian, but I'm gonna take care in responding so gimme some time. There are loads of good launching-off points here, and some that I'm pretty much constantly mulling over. Good timing, too, because I've dedicated the last month (and hopefully not more than another week because my lower back is really sore from all this time in front of the screen) to setting up enough infrastrcuture to address the fact that despite the intense output of work I do, I don't actually have enough money to buy cake ingredients for our dessert this evening (don't worry, I'll just lift them gently from the shelves of my local supermarket and tuck them snugly into my pocket. There will still be cake.)
You're a peach. A smart peach. x
Offline
Viva,
You weren't meandering at all. I read your post twice last night but was too tired to form a good response and I have a full day today.
You have touched on a favorite topic on mine, marketing.
"
Because Gala never pretended she was too good to take anyone's money, it was and will be impossible for her to sell-out. Because she never put anyone else down, she's free to transform in any way she pleases over the coming years. It's a perfect business model, and it's perfect because it was never a business model - just an organic process that happened to be a money-making machine. Well, Gala, that depends on you - but I am confident that if you're gunning to make it big, you can. People will know your name, if you want them to."
This is great and it says as much about you as it does Gala.
Perhaps I can pick back up on this later.
"Chacun prépare sa propre mort."
French saying.
Offline
I think there may be a little avoidance of this thread because it could so easily get bogged down in a pro or anti capitalist shitslinging match and noone wants to cop a steaming pile to the face (or perhaps they do...whatever floats your boat). But I think that since we all like getting our paychecks and I don't see a mass movement away from capitalism coming anytime soon that this is a pretty interesting topic to pursue.
Personally I don't have any problem whatsoever with self-promotion. Everybody has to do it at some stage whether that be to promote their own business, their skills for a job interview, or their amazing personality to the completely adorable waiter/ess/whatever they've been hoping to get the number of. The way you believe yourself to be inside is so often removed from the way you present yourself to the world, whether it be through filtering your language, dressing a certain way, or by acting in ways that you feel may appeal to prospective lovers/friends/businesscontacts etc. I think whether we like it or not most people do present a brand, the only difference is how strongly they promote it and whether you receive the dollars in exchange.
It's funny though.... some larger charities may be run in exactly the same way as the 'big bad corporations' yet their promotion is never so negitively met.
So many businesses need such a huge amount of hard work in order to actually succeed that really I don't begrudge them the $ucce$$ of their marketing campaigns.
Hope I make at least a little sense.
Offline
I agree. Money makes the world go around. That's just a fact. This is not a free site and everyone at IFM, and Feck is doing this to make money. Fine. They have their own marketable skills. There was a market niche for this product, supply and demand. Anyone can check out the particulars on IFM and Feck and see a lot of their corporation information.
So it's not a big leap to connect my membership with the paycheck of whoever.
Great. I've long thought IFM should market a bit more because more revenue allows them more room to grow and perhaps try some projects that would strain their present budget.
I don't want the site to, "slick up". Go mainstream. And I certainly won't profit monetarily from any growth.
I knew an artist who claimed all of the best art, poems, writings and music would never be seen or heard because a true artist would keep it hidden of destroy the work when finished. I couldn't agree. Jackson Pollock, Truman Capote, Bob Dylan, Jack Kerouac, Jane Austen, were all in it to make a buck/pound. Remember the Mothers album, "We're Only in it for the Money"? Zappa was sticking it to the very people, the anti-capitalists who were trying to tear down the system they would soon embrace once the novelty and drugs wore off.
I spent most of my life in the military. I didn't do it for mother, the flag, my country, I did it for the money. Well, and my fellow sailors. My officers were in it for the money, the politicians who told us where to go and what to do, were sure as shit in it for the money. And then some.
"I wonder if a business, any profit-making business, is capable of promoting itself with a similar consciousness, without glitz, without dishonesty? Is there a way for a business to market itself effectively without ultimately coming off as a wanky seedy needy lie-fest? Even Amanda Palmer was criticized for Kickstarting her album because "she's already rich". Everyone's confused and suspicious of Google. No one trusts you if you make money. What's up with that, and is having money a legitimate concern?"
Viva, this is great. I think IFM does promote itself in about as honest way possible. I choose to believe they do. It's not in their site statements but they want to make a living. To me, that in no way runs contrary to the site content, site intent or what I think is a very personal approach to an adult venue.
I do wonder about the preview of the new Emily_C vid just as my membership is about to expire but If I have presented myself as a market target, that's a double edged sword. It gives me the ability to dictate what's going to be released toward the end of my membership. Now that's a genuine delusion.*
Setting my ramble aside, self promotion to earn money isn't bad, or a sell out. The posts above mine are so well written, so openly stated, so genuine that they are a draw to me. I love the interaction.
The newest KitKat vid (Gets better with each installment.) is proof positive of IFM's intent. If an increase in membership can continue to allow the IFM folks to produce that sort of work as well as all of the other amazing aspects of the presentation of the female orgasm, it works for me.
*(Bit of humor.)
Last edited by WLV612 (01-06-12 12:15:36)
"Chacun prépare sa propre mort."
French saying.
Offline
Thanks for that. I truly agree that part of being able to have enough money to produce lucubrations and video diaries in addition to the other content on the site is fucking fantastic and I like a lot of what you have to say about making money without shame. I personally wish that we marketed more and made more money so that, as you say, we could have more time and space to work on projects which we cannot at the moment, and as I mull over my own potential abilities to promote Feck, I will periodically be revisiting this theme - why promote? is it ok to promote? How to promote? etc.
For the record, scheduling is done way in advance and if we had to cross reference the schedule with every member who reminded us their subscription was running out and who their favorites were, Aven would never have time to water her oasis or make art for her cat to play with. Sometimes we can move things around if you ask nicely, but we'll never use any specific contribution as a lure for anyone to stay - that would be creepy! I know you're not creepy, and that you were joking WLV - just want to be clear here. We don't have the staff or the inclination to target individuals month by month
Offline
Yeah, the Emily_C thing was a random thought and I was surprised and pleased when Richard said she had things on the way.
I've mentioned the idea of more widespread promotion and I understand and totally agree that a major departure from what exists now could have an adverse effect on the site content to some extent.
IFM is far from exclusive but membership allows IFM to follow through with their original concept so I don't know how additional revenue would help but it sure wouldn't hurt.
In my opinion the staff is pretty solid and I'd imagine there's a lot of commonality of scope and focus in addition to the intelligent and imaginative input of so many unique personalities.
This means I can view a vid by someone who interacts here and it becomes a very layered and personal encounter.
I'm really tired so this is a bit wobbly but Jane_E's outdoor vids. Just the incredible amount of physical exertion is a sight but to have her comment on how she views the vid and expressing her own physical experience, that's just great.
I'll say you all earn your wages fair and square and if you can raise your market value, that's fine. I'm not a slave to money but it allows me to get though life in a style that suits me. I donate to charities, help my family and put my money to good use and my personal indulgences are my reward for being able to sell my skills and market myself for many years. IFM is an indulgence that is the Vieille Réserve of adult sites. I earned it.
"Chacun prépare sa propre mort."
French saying.
Offline
Well if anyone's into thinking more about this, and also getting really fucking annoyed at your computer screen, read this article. Some interesting points to speak to but warning, this article is written with a narrow, punishing POV on porn and the adult industry.
ps when its over you won't like louis theroux anymore, really, at all, if you did. Okay.
Offline
louis theroux is just a piss taking asshole http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl … -jE#t=54sE
.
(Self made tycoon and independant financial advisor to the stars)
Offline
Well if anyone's into thinking more about this, and also getting really fucking annoyed at your computer screen, read this article. Some interesting points to speak to but warning, this article is written with a narrow, punishing POV on porn and the adult industry.
ps when its over you won't like louis theroux anymore, really, at all, if you did. Okay.
It looks pretty accurate to me. He's talking about scripted porn, which's (that isn't a word in the english language but should be) days have been numbered because it just isn't sexy, which is, after all, supposed to be the objective. Until the internet came along and offered alternatives it had the market cornered. Just like vanilla icecream, domestic beer and condoms made out of catgut.
Online
It looks pretty accurate to me. He's talking about scripted porn, which's (that isn't a word in the english language but should be) days have been numbered because it just isn't sexy, which is, after all, supposed to be the objective. Until the internet came along and offered alternatives it had the market cornered. Just like vanilla icecream, domestic beer and condoms made out of catgut.
I agree. He just used a lot more words. Your comparisons are spot on. Just 5 years ago, the micro-brew industry was popular but limited. Now, our stores have micro-brew sections that are as large as the major brews. The prices are higher but they're selling. If there's better to be had and you have the money and the taste, better is what you'll buy. Or, in my case it is.
"Chacun prépare sa propre mort."
French saying.
Offline
By the very act of taking the piss, Theroux brings his preset view to the subject. He's making sweeping assumptions about the people who appear in and make mainstream porn. He could do the same for retail or banking and there are people who hate and love working in those sectors too. No matter how much time you spend investigating something, if your just taking the piss your not discovering. He makes entertainment for the casually interested and ignorant, when the subjects very entertainment value is that it's interesting. We don't need Theroux we have lots of other voices now on youtube and vimeo.
,
(Self made tycoon and independant financial advisor to the stars)
Offline
His tone is what irks me, boys. He is unbelievably judgmental, condescending, and quite clearly a huge prude. His tone is sex-negative and punishing. He takes a small section of a huge set and extrapolates willy-nilly about the entire set. The way that the porn industry looked last year in the San Fernando Valley is nothing like the way the porn industry looks in nearby San Francisco Bay or a little ways down the block in Melbourne, Australia. Theroux takes a narrow-minded postulate to LA, proves it on the back of a few observations and a few clipped interviews (one wherein he harasses a widow to ask if porn killed her man) - and then writes an article as if he were somehow informed, or somehow a part of this.
Shall I just make an example? Statements like this:
"Many [women] come into porn looking for validation, fleeing lives of damage and abuse. "
This is a problematic way to phrase this statement, even if it's true - and no data is provided to argue one way or another. By feeding sentences like this into the minds of random readers looking for a bit of a non-biased look into an industry (which is what Louis Theroux claims to provide - deep investigative journalism with a humorist twist), you set up a causal relation, one which we're pre-socialized to believe - that sex workers, porn stars, and all them scarlet wimmens are EITHER broken victims, tricked and forced into sex work by their own sad fate or.... or.... or.... THEY'RE JUST SLUTS.
This is propaganda for people who believe that porn exploits women absolutely and that ultimately, any women who strays sexually from the norm has no agency of her own, and no voice of her own. She is a victim. Or she is a dirty slut.
I bring it to the table because of the good points which manage to get made despite his insufferably slut-shamey approach to the whole thing. The decline of the traditional porno business model is one thing I would like to discuss. But I'm too annoyed to read it again, shit.
Offline
Theroux takes a narrow-minded postulate to LA, proves it on the back of a few observations and a few clipped interviews (one wherein he harasses a widow to ask if porn killed her man) - and then writes an article as if he were somehow informed, or somehow a part of this.
Isn't that way journalism is approached in large part, due to the internet? Not setting up a debate, just asking.
I bring it to the table because of the good points which manage to get made despite his insufferably slut-shamey approach to the whole thing. The decline of the traditional porno business model is one thing I would like to discuss. But I'm too annoyed to read it again, shit.
I was just following Richard's point and you touch on the same here, the decline of the porn business model which has given rise to the, "Micro-brew" business model as we see at IFM.
Theroux is an unknown to me but his style is very recognizable, as blissed framed it, "He makes entertainment for the casually interested and ignorant....." which is the new. or newest, business model for journalism.
Let your annoyance pass and discuss those points. I don't need any entertainment but I'd like to have my own personal ignorance addressed. I don't belong to IFM solely to satisfy my prurient interests.
Ignorance of the world around me, and more so, acceptance or complacence regarding my ignorance is a very serious personal issue and at my age, positively criminal.
When you state; " By feeding sentences like this into the minds of random readers looking for a bit of a non-biased look into an industry (which is what Louis Theroux claims to provide - deep investigative journalism with a humorist twist), you set up a causal relation, one which we're pre-socialized to believe - that sex workers, porn stars, and all them scarlet wimmens are EITHER broken victims, tricked and forced into sex work by their own sad fate or.... or.... or.... THEY'RE JUST SLUTS." , I'm waiting for, ".....when in point of fact, research shows......", because I loathe sweeping generalities. as much as you seem to loathe them.
"Chacun prépare sa propre mort."
French saying.
Offline
I took a long walk with my partner at 3am the other night, and we talked about some things that help me to speak to Viva's OP. Thanks for the launching points, Viva. And for the affirmations. I enjoy the attention of people who I respect. That invigorates me and I grow more.
Firstly, as a former dabbler in anarcho-girlie politics, I too squirm a little when I hear words like 'branding'. I've come a long way, and today I do believe I uttered the term at least twice over the last day in conversation with Aven. I'm glad that I'm skeptical of our conventions in marketing, because that can help me to elevate my practices in that area. It also, at the very least, means I've thought about it. And I kinda want to stop and think about most of the decisions I make in this part of my professional life. They seem like they really matter.
I guess there's something built into my working methodology that kinda does preclude selling out, at least to a degree. I am so very aware, every day, that I'm dealing with human sexuality, and that even the small stuff matters. The tiny negative experiences and thoughts that dig into our sexual psyches can amass, and become giant blocks. I don't want to contribute to that. I want to counter it. I am honoured with being in the position of offering positive sexual experiences to others, or helping to facilitate their own. The way I treat people, the way I interact with them, the energy I carry with me when I'm present with them, is a really big deal. I need to be healthy and sound in order to imbue my work with those qualities. It's detrimental to my health when I don't feel like I am in my integrity. I care a lot about my health.
If we're going to do this, it needs to feel good. I've been saying this for years. But I am a process-based being. More and more, though, process and product are becoming equally valuable, and I like what that means for folks like me. I'm looking forward to launching the world's 'slow porn' movement.
I've been thinking about this for years. It's taken a long time to get to the point where I believe so wholly in what I'm doing that I can do something so lofty as to suggest that you might support it. I've had a lot of years of practice, now, a lot of modes of interaction, and I've chosen this time carefully to out myself as a High-Quality Thing-to-be-Bought. It's not just that I want people to know my name. It's that I want them to know me and how I work and where I'm coming from, and I want them to value that when they make the decision whether or not to give me something back for that.
I try really hard not to do things that don't feel good. And I think I've developed decent neural pathways for getting to an understanding of why things don't feel good when they don't, and responding accordingly. Not perfect, but pretty decent. And it's an action I repeat constantly.
Of course this doesn't address everything, and I really haven't covered people's responses and the Louis Theroux. But that's what I've got right now. I think these are the conversations that evolve into mission statements and best practices and all of that real business-y stuff that I, as a newly-crowned Lady of Two Phones, am totes into right now.
If only you could get the NEIS scheme for sexy enterprising.
Last edited by gala (08-06-12 16:12:39)
Offline
Gala,
What an amazing post and by coincidence it dovetails perfectly with my train of thought while I've been working around my house and running some other responses through my head.
It's late in the game for me to try to re-invent myself. To even stray too far from the narrow views that were hammered at me,into me for many, many years.
I'm glad that there were certain aspects of my life and my thought processes I've been able to discard and replace with things I feel are right. That allow me some freedom I never had before.
You bring out several, ummmm, thoughts doesn't quite work, but several things that would make for hours of discussion.
I had stopped my chores to respond to another reply but really had no idea what to write so you've forced me to set that aside for now. Or forever.
Just great stuff and wonderfully, clearly, succinctly stated.
"Chacun prépare sa propre mort."
French saying.
Offline
Condeming all marketing is like condeming all porn. There's lots of different types of marketing. It can be an enjoyable and fullfilling creative process. Madonna's been doing it for years, it's a game and an art.
.
(Self made tycoon and independant financial advisor to the stars)
Offline
Condeming all marketing is like condeming all porn. There's lots of different types of marketing. It can be an enjoyable and fullfilling creative process. Madonna's been doing it for years, it's a game and an art.
.
Odd you mention Madonna. Anyone who knows me knows that I always site Madonna as one of the shrewdest marketers in the world. Dolly Parton as well. While they both have artistic talent, their real strength is marketing that talent.
People I know who've met and recorded with Dolly agree she's the nicest person you'd want to meet but business is business and Dolly plays the game very well.
"Chacun prépare sa propre mort."
French saying.
Offline
I wonder how you can get to be the nicest person you'd want to meet but still play the game well enough to fuck over those who don't play as well as you. I'm fascinated by unapologetic women - being quite apologetic myself.
WLV, you asked me for indicative research to support my points and all I can say to you, is that I get paid to praise individual women, speculate philosophically about tits, and rotate photos of faces - I'm not a journalist and I read what I want to read, not what I have to in order to provide excellent journalism.
I can tell you my lay-woman's opinion about these things and no more - again, I am not a journalist. But if you ask me to verify whether all women who do porn are either victims or whore-sluts, I say, look around - look at me. Look at this anecdotal evidence. Will you believe this? Will you believe that we're real women, behaving with agency, doing what we want to do? Or are we victims without knowing it, tools of a greater society, making illusory choices? There is no point of fact, research shows - because you don't need research. You only need one woman who decided for herself to do porn for her own reasons - and then you need to decide whether you trust her to make decisions for herself. That's all you need to make Theroux's slanted statement an unfortunate one.
Also you asked me if that isn't what all internet journalism is these days - well, a lot of it, yes. Journalism with integrity is as rare, I guess, as individuals with true integrity. That doesn't mean we should ever stop being critical, and now more than ever with the ease with which spurious claims can be made, it's important to be vigilant.
Offline
Gala, it's heartening and exciting to hear you speak of health and respect and I love all the positives - but if we really want to have a constructive conversation about self-marketing, I think it's really important to talk about the potential criticisms which come along with that. Are you comfortable with that? If not I can steer the conversation otherways.
Offline
I'm happy for you to offer that, sure, but sometimes I feel that you neglect to display empathy in delivering such things, so I'd ask you to take some care with that and be ok with me not necessarily speaking to every point. Some of it will be relevant to me, but some might not. I work in a very particular set of circumstances and resource constraints, and that's where I require understanding in order to engage.
Offline
Thanks for that. To be clear, I know that I have a tendency to express myself harshly for effect or in defensiveness sometimes. I hope that if and when I come off as uncaring in a way that effects someone individually, that they or anyone else feels safe to call me out on that.
I intend to ask broad questions but since you're my only local resource when it comes to this discussion I wanted to make sure you were okay with being included - not so much as me offering you specific criticism (I wouldn't do that on a public or semi-public forum) but more just as a conversation between us chickens. So on this note, we have a beginning.
I wanted to start by discussing criticism itself, as a thing. Criticism is an absolute function of putting yourself out there - the more people you open yourself up to, the higher the likelihood that someone will want to bring you down. Some may be individually not into what you're selling, some may be the detractors - folks who tear down anything they perceive as "getting too big". But some may be absolutely worth listening to.
I'm curious how any of you think of criticism when your behaviour turns from only doing things for yourself, to ostensibly doing things for others. When we live private lives and do not put ourselves or our services in the public eye it's easy to disregard detractors, but when we decide to lend our futures and our energy to benefit others, criticism takes on a new role. At best, it can help us to be better people and to achieve greater things with our potential. At least, heeding it can help us make more money - though it is a deeper question where personal compromise is required.
I wonder about the mechanisms of keeping ourselves open to genuine criticism without being destroyed by those who would bring us down. I think a lot lately about the strength which lies in vulnerability. Is it possible to maintain your own vulnerability - your truth, your reality - and still take on the words and comments of others? Or is it best to trust mainly your own self, and let all criticism run off your duck feathers so as not to become confused?
Offline
Let your subconscious filter critiscism and add what's usefull to your vision. It'll do that for you even when your asleep.
.
(Self made tycoon and independant financial advisor to the stars)
Offline
I'm going to revive this thread just a little bit to make sure you're all still thinking about the future of porn in this world of increasingly free entertainment. At some point, will we just put everyone out of business? Maybe then we'll all turn off our tv's and go out into the fields, blink in the offensive daylight, hold hands in Tennessee, and set about re-purposing the banks into stages for performing Shakespeare in the park. Richard, I'm sorry, in this brave new world we will not need porn as we will spank it to images of true friendship and galactic sun clusters.
Anyway, the article.
Offline
Free to air TV killed the cinema in the 60s and now it's back. with Brave taking £42.8 million in it's 1st weekend and the avengers taking £89 trillion.
Youtube with 5 sec skip ad and partnerships is much more convenient than piracy and iTunes and it's competitors are there if we really want to own something.
"With permission" systems are taking over from piracy by offering convenience and safety. I'm not gonna subject my computer to botnet attacks and all kinds of digimonsters just because I wanna listen to this for 3 mins http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZXvLsltu2A
People will always make and consume sexual imagery and the sexual imagery will inspire us to orgasm. "With permission" systems will evolve because the copyright and patent holders have more motivation than someone downloading without permission. Most downloaders just want a library and choice and convenience.
This changes a little with sophisticated 3D printing. Saving yourself the cost of an iphone by searching the illegal file to print one is worthy of an all day quest. So are the searches for files to print fire arms and assassin poison insect sized flying bots or swarms. (hey we are talking about the future and billions will go into preventing that security risk.
Haptic porn and casual virtual sex, 3D immersive porn and CGi indistinguishable from reality porn and the creativity of all those art forms for solo and partner sex. Everyone can write but there are popular authors. Universal access to the tools of creativity don't kill the art form they let it flourish. Feck already exists in a world with universal access to digital photography and 1080p video.
So in summary for all entertainment creativity is the commodity that attracts advertising revenue and paid subscription in a with permission system that's convenient, where the risk of piracy is too high and the motivation of the copyright and patent holders to make it risky is greater than the downloaders casual interest in the content.
.
(Self made tycoon and independant financial advisor to the stars)
Offline