oops, babies

viva · 02-04-12 03:40:16

oh man, so I got into this conversation on the weekend with a dude who basically said any one who doesn't want children is either wrong or lying about it. He's a good guy so don't judge too harshly, but his point was about his meaning of life centering around the relationships we create with each other, and how all the rest - the job, the house, the choices you thought you made, the art you thought mattered in some grandiose way when you were 32, the business you owned and grew and lost - his point was all that is just tide, in and out, ultimately meaningless.

He spoke very intently about the moment when he will be old, and he will hang out with his son, and hold his grandson, and his eyes lit up and because I am someone who does want children, I shared in his very poignant attempt to communicate how devastatingly above-all beautiful that concept is to him.

Well, his wife (who doubles as my best friend) does not want a kid, so this was a really uncomfortable conversation for her. I see this happening time and again - a woman who doesn't want a child is dumb, lying or in the end, just plain mistaken. Poor her - a man can decide anytime really. But she better pop one out before them fields go fallow, amirite? Or else she'll shrivel up and miss the entire point of life.

The problem here is, that even speaking about ones feelings - unless those feelings conform - is a landmine, an invitation to easy gas-lighting (again, if she doesn't wanna breed "one day", she's wrong or she's lying, remember). This social pattern sets these women up for defensiveness before they even have a chance to talk this shit out. And feeling defensive doesn't help us achieve clarity - it's the opposite.

I rage against this concept but for me, it's purely emotional empathy - as someone who does want a kid, I can't inform myself any better on this topic.

So really anyone can chime in who's interested in the discussion, but I am really eager to hear from women and men too who really don't want a child - now or ever. I want to know all about what you dream of for your life, for your old age and what has true meaning to you. I'm not interested in talking about the population so much - If anything, people who don't want kids tend to bring the pop. issue up with relief as something to point to and say, "see? It's okay to not have kids." But really, I think we make those decisions on a personal level, not in response to some sort of 6 billion people on the globe factoid.

Okay cool, hopefully someone can shed some light on this thing with me.

blissed · 02-04-12 11:43:06

When hetro couples decide to have babies it's not an equal decision, as women have a much greater physical commitment, and so the final say, and if it's no, that has to be accepted with good grace. I have a friend who's done kind of the reverse of your friends husband and had a baby with someone who didn't want to live with her, but he's been really good at emotionally and financially supporting her and her son when needed. It's a good alternative arrangement.

Your friends husband can accept her decision with good grace but he's still gonna yearn for his own children, and every time he genuinely expresses that your friend will feel pressured. So what would be ideal for them would be to have an alternative arrangement too. He could donate sperm in response to an ad, but that would be impersonal and only ease a small part of his yearning. If he was good friends with a sapphic couple (and so they'd be good friends with your best friend too) who he could give his fresh sperm too and then be an extended family relative to the child or children. Then the kids and the sapphic couple could benefit from the love and support and your friend could benefit from some of the nice things about occasionally having children around while being able to give them back when she's run out of energy and realise why she didn't want any If she'd met someone who'd had children from a previous marriage that ended amicably, the situation would be very similar.

.

Last edited by blissed (02-04-12 12:12:10)

WLV612 · 02-04-12 13:41:16

"amirite"? I like that. Consider it stolen.

I never wanted children but I never wanted to be married either. Well, I got both. I'm not the fatherly type but luckily for my daughter, I'm the motherly type and I gotta tell ya', grandchildren are the berries.
I can't go along with the "need to breed" mind set. Very few couples are really prepared to be parents whether they realize it or not. Admit it or not. I've seen enough child abuse, both blatant and, "mild" though there's no such thing. You can't disguise abuse as discipline, or "Teaching manners".
If there's a desire in a relationship for a child/children it needs to be mutual straight down the line. Any doubt and stop! Go no further. A poor choice will destroy the relationship in short and what's worse, leave a troubled or perhaps damaged individual to make their way through life wishing they'd never been born and knowing at least one of their parents felt the same way. You shouldn't, "want" to have a child, you should desire to raise a human being in the best possible way. There's way too many parents who treat their pets with more love and kindness than they show toward their children. Trust me on this.

(Did this make any sense? Is this in any way an answer? I'm not sure.)

Liandra_Dahl · 02-04-12 15:50:13

It made total sense to me.

I probably shouldn't respond because I'm not the target of the question but I will anyway *grin*

I never wanted to have children when I was growing up. I changed my mind at the grand old age of 19 and had a baby a year later. Babies are the easy part. I loved it and it was a piece of cake. Birth and shitty nappies are nothing compared to the terrible two's which I should imagine is nothing compared to teenage years that I am just about to start with my tween. It's hard hard hard but it has deepened my capacity to love, my tenacity to love, my patience, my commitment to self improvement, my view of the future when I don't exist and much much more. All things I am grateful for. I will not have more children though. Having raised a child entirely alone with no co-parent and very little family support I would strongly recommend doing everything you can to avoid that situation. Adversity in childhood can often make for unique strength of character once you become an adult. Yet they also claim it makes you more vulnerable and prone to fucked up stuff happening in your youth. Loosing a child, as my parents did, after an adverse childhood and then massive risk taking behaviour, is a pain I hope I never ever know. Adversity in your child's childhood just plagues you with guilt and worry as a parent in a way you cannot experience in any other human relationship. Procreation is entered into far too lightly I think because it is so easy to get pregnant. Choose your co-parent WISELY and if in doubt DON'T. Consider the idea that your relationship might fail and the potential of that person as an ex to to be a friend and co-parent with common beliefs in how to parent. Having said all that, no one can be a perfect parenting team and if you try to be you'll fail. In the end you just have to let go of your attachment to outcomes and make the process as good as you can get it.

No one can fathom what parenting is like from the outside. It's a whole different ball game to what you imagine it is. The internal emotional world of a parent is not like anything else I've ever experienced. You may be great with other people's kids but that isn't comparable either. I've been around hundreds of children and unless they're traumatised or have a disorder they are always vastly better behaved for non-parent adults.

It is the longest and deepest commitment of your entire life and you may find that regardless of doing what you thought was your best your child doesn't really have time for you when you're old and you die in an old people's home alone. I worked in old aged nursing homes and I saw this happen A LOT with ordinary families. You cannot have children for the hope of how they will love and adore you like no one else. That is what you will do for them but there is no absolute guarantee you'll get that back.

For me I love parenting now more than I ever did and it grows as she gets older. Now it matches the ease and joy of that first year, like then there are downsides, not sleeping at all then was crappy... listening to tween girls butcher the English language is crappy now... but it's great right now. Probably the calm before the storm. However, no matter how great it can be, no one should have a child in relationship under pressure and duress. That's just a recipe for resentment and resentment makes for bad co-parenting and unhappy children. Like WLV612 said. The best way to look at choosing to procreate is that you are committed to raising a human from birth to adulthood and the sharing their adult journey with them if they choose to include you in it.

Last edited by Liandra_Dahl (02-04-12 16:18:26)

WLV612 · 02-04-12 17:00:33

Brava! What a great, great post! I'll probably print that out and to save. You expressed my thoughts better than I could! Or rather my thoughts are a reflection of what you wrote. Yeah, that's better.
You get it.
If my post didn't answer Viva's question, your's should.
Jeez! I just love intelligent posts.

(Read your post for the third time. I wish I could write with such precision. My mind won't focus that long. You wrote so much more that is critical to any person or couple who may be struggling with a parenting decision. You must be one hell of a Mom.)

Last edited by WLV612 (02-04-12 17:04:09)

viva · 03-04-12 01:45:24

Thanks guys, you shed light on the topic that I simply can't as a non-mama. Still both of you express that you never wanted children, and then ended up having some anyway - and from what I read it seems that you both wouldn't have it any other way.

What I would love to learn about especially - and now that I think about it, we aren't the best audience to poll - but I really want to hear from childless men and women of all ages who have decided not to have children, and still are happy with that decision, and do not intend to change it.

Liandra_Dahl · 03-04-12 07:13:04

yeah sorry for the ramble that was absolutely not what you were asking for. I would most definitely have it another way, I would not have had a child so young with a person incapable of parenting with me, who in fact deliberately hindered good parenting.

I do hope the wilfully childless responds too *grin* I detest how women who have opted not to have children are derided in the media, as Julia Gillard is. It's irrelevant but there is this tyranny of "family" that treats people without one or not wanting one as freakish.

This is hearsay but my sister and her husband have decided not to have children because there are genetic disabilities in the family line and mental illness and they have chosen to avoid that risk completely.

Betty Dodson told me she chose her career over children and Carlin the same.

Other people I know who have opted for no children have done so because they want to be footloose and fancy free with hedonism, travel and adventure as their priority. Of course children and travel and adventure aren't mutually exclusive. I've travelled with my daughter, and twice moved to other countries to live. However, most of the separated parents I know cannot do that because it is illegal to take a child out of the country away from their other parent. Also, every time I tell people I am planning an overseas adventure a certain type of peer parent will assure me this is too spontaneous for a parent and children will suffer for it as they need to stay in one place and have security and consistency. However, evidence has shown me otherwise and it just seems that is one of those myths they try and shackle parents with so they do the whole "married, mortgage, house with a picket fence, family, family pet and the same job for life, lots of debt and things" that is insisted is the only way to raise happy children.

Yeah there's a tonne of reasons not have kids I just think people who express that for themselves are often painted as selfish. Still it's better to recognise that you don't want children before you have them. My mother told me she hated motherhood and I really feel for her because that is a awfully hard thing to admit. I've strayed into a ramble again... sorry.

Last edited by Liandra_Dahl (06-04-12 16:40:13)

aven frey · 03-04-12 10:53:31

Liandra_Dahl wrote:

Also, every time I tell people I am planning an overseas adventure a certain type of peer parent will assure me this is too spontaneous for a parent and children will suffer for it as they need to stay in one place and have security and consistency.

oh man I hate that, what is it about child rearing that people feel it's okay to invest so much judgement in what other people are doing? Kid's are versatile, what they need more than anything is love, then they'll feel secure while developing important life skills in adaptation and all the other things that come with not being sheltered by consistency and convention.

Though I have to say every child should have a kitten. And said kitten should not be fed to the family dog for sport, cause that might traumatise a kid and render her baron, in the mind.

And so it goes I don't want to have children. I find it kinda hard to articulate why, there's lots of psychoanalytical reasons I could list that I'm sure are all relevant but I wonder if it just comes down to feeling like I don't really need for my life to be meaningful. Or that for me reproduction would fail to provide the kind of meaningful that your friend Viva describes.

I'd be interested in hearing what the reproductives (current and future) feel in regards to this meaningfulness that society attributes to reproducing.

Half way though writing this post I called my grandparents to find out the status of my grandfather who is going in for open heart surgery after Easter.

Right at this minute I don't think that I need anyone to feel the deep sadness I just felt listening to him speak of his cardio echo and imagining a world post Ronnie but sometimes there is an anxiety about loneliness and death that creeps in from some place that needs always to be loved. However I find I can control those kinds of anxieties by deconstructing them within the context of biological science, and that makes sense to me and feels well, kinda meaningful.

WLV612 · 03-04-12 14:04:38

More great thoughts and insights and I don't have time to contribute my opinions now, perhaps later but great reading and very thought provoking.
Liandra, must have been incredibly difficult for your mother to feel and live that way and to express that feeling. Must be a bit difficult for you to put out publicly.
I don't think my mother disliked motherhood but she sure as hell disliked me. I don't hold it against her, lot's of people in this world don't like me. No reason why one of those can't be a parent. Only reasonable. Why can't a parent dislike one of their children?
Again, the beauty of being a parent is having grandchildren. I don't try to play the role of the sage and wise grandfather. I tell them up front I'm an asshole. Honestly goes a long way and we have tons of fun. No pressure.

blissed · 03-04-12 15:01:31

When kids have an incredibly stable upbringing they get bored. What teens mean by bored is everything is too secure and safe, because at that stage many of us thrive on the energy of uncertainty.

.

WLV612 · 03-04-12 16:21:19

blissed wrote:

When kids have an incredibly stable upbringing they get bored. What teens mean by bored is everything is too secure and safe, because at that stage many of us thrive on the energy of uncertainty.
.

Couldn't agree more. Children should be challenged, tested and made to think and act for themselves. A parent should attempt to channel that energy so that the child , if nothing else, doesn't bring harm to anyone in any way. No, they don't have to become a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist but they should have aspirations and those should be focused on what will get them through life without the stress and pressure of being some sort of, "Standard Bearer" or carry on some sort of legacy, a family name. That's horse shit. Be happy. Make others happy. Don't step on others to climb toward your goals.
Children are loaded to the ears with all this, "You have to be this or do that!" or whatever. The only thing a parent need impart is a sense of conducting your life with the least amount of negative impact on yourself and those around you.
Fuck this, "Save the World!" bull shit. Be happy. Be content to be yourself and whatever follows can't be bad for anyone.
There are only four things a parent need teach a child, to read, tell time, tie their own shoes and wipe their own ass. The world will do the rest.
There's only one thing I've been emphatic about with my granddaughters, well, two, the first is don't bring a child into this life without considering the fact that they'll be just another rat in an already close race.
The other is never let me see you with a cigarette. Never. That's it.

viva · 04-04-12 02:18:07

Liandra, I love to watch you wank and listen to you talk about parenthood with nearly equal satisfaction. Is that weird?

It's so good to hear someone say the things I think who is actually in a position to be taken seriously - i.e. a mom talking about raising children as opposed to a childless woman who can't even remember to wear shoes out of the house, talking about raising children.

I have always felt the same - that if college -> degree -> good job -> happy life was a lie, probably there were no truths except my own after all. And it went to follow that childbirth = unbearable torturous pain is a lie, and that children = the end of fun and freedom is a lie, and it was a lie that there's only one good way of raising those children (with a bed for them and a house they won't leave until they're 18 and a yellow blankie and they go to a good school and trips to the toy store on weekends).

Society told me having children means you'll never have time again - for yourself, for your partner, never quite enough for your child, for the "things you always wanted to do", and for the projects and work that feed your personality.

It's bullshit! Unhappy people want other people to be unhappy too!

I never did what the world said, my mom did exactly the opposite of what the world said, and it was hard but I turned out okay. She is still struggling - some people aren't cut out for this world. But by failing to be a good mom, and still succeeding to make me and my brother, she taught me that most valuable lesson - that you can basically DO WHAT YOU WANT in life. You're not going to really fuck up your kids unless you actively hurt them or deprive them of love and nourishment.

The kids who stay in one house? Have to spend time learning to do what THEY want. The kids who grow up with no discipline? Have to spend time finding it for themselves, later. The kids who grow up spoiled have to learn to give, the kids who grow up hungry have to learn to accept. The kids who travel, one day have to learn to settle down and trust.

No one is born into this world on a fast-track to happiness. The rest is just fear - don't make a dumb baby, play it mozart. don't make a fat baby, feed it organics that you puree yourself. don't make a confused one, keep it in one spot and turn it's head to cross the street but otherwise stare straight ahead at the blackboard until it's time to stare at the computer and so on and so forth.

This post got a lot more frustrated then I meant it to, sorry! I'll be back later with some nicer thoughts. I especially appreciated Bobby's contribution and I would like to address you my Bobby-friend. Later, after the frothing.

hyperballad · 04-04-12 03:08:10

I never used to want children or to be a 'mum'.

Most likely based mostly on my opinions of my mum and her parenting efforts. I mean, I didn't even want a significant other for the longest time as I thought trying to rely on someone to be there for you was stupid and pointless. Once again, a reflection of my parents relationship.

Then I was diagnosed with endo and my first ever specialist, on my first ever consultation told me I might not ever be able to have kids. I was 19. I had to have a fairly invasive surgery that resulted in very little that was informative or helpful for me.

Frankly being told 'you can't' made me really examine my reasoning behind my adamant declarations of Never Procreating and see it for what it was. Rebellion and a total rejection of my parents actions, beliefs and their shitty, shitty parenting.

Yes, I do judge my folks harshly, but really they are such messed up humans that these days I just grin, try my best to be gracious and send home money for them, when I can. I acknowledge they did the very best they could and every step of the way in their lives society told them to settle down and make babies and everything would be okay.

Today I am waiting, I am waiting til I don't have a stupid debt from my early adult mistakes, til I have been in a house for longer than 1 year at a time and I have a life I would be happy to make another little person, a part of.

Sometimes I see beautiful little people and I just ache for the possibility...

Making a person is something I dearly want to do. I have an amazing partner who will be a great papa too. In a few years hopefully we will have achieved the things we deem necessary for us to procreate.

No one ever, ever, ever could have dictated this process to me though. This has been a journey I needed to undertake in order for me to work out what is right for me and for my future. No one can tell you what is 'right' or 'good' for you, especially in terms of growing a human inside you and committing at least 18 years of your life.

To assume otherwise is ludicrous, crass and obnoxious. Whether you're the sweetest person in the world, telling me you know what is best for me, my body and my life is so incredibly arrogant, I don't even.

WLV612 · 04-04-12 13:18:11

I was hoping you'd chime in and you seem to have the same set of parents I had.
My mother was nothing less than sadistic toward me as she blamed for my brother's death and did until the day she died. Oddly enough, out of 6 of us, I was the one who took care of my parents right to the grave.
But, this isn't about me.
It is an example of how and why a person can do everything wrong for the right reasons and reverse when it comes to being a parent.
You're not raising a child, you're building a human being. You owe them the best choice options life has to offer. They didn't ask to come here, They didn't have a choice of parents. They're stuck with the hand they were dealt. There are untold thousands of children in this area who were born so the parents could get more welfare money and no other reason.
If you don't who you are and are comfortable in your own skin, you're not going to rectify that conflict by having children.
And yes, know your co-parent. Know them as well as you know your self.
There are rewards for the work one does raising children. They just might not be the rewards you expected so don't expect anything. Just set an example and let them know you made the choice to give them life and you owe them a decent shot at their own life.
Be fair and honest about life and yourself and they'll figure out the rest.
We all know that children learn everything they need to know to live between the ages 2-6. Don't bring any negativity into those formative years and you'll have done about all you can do.
Can't say this enough, grandchildren are the big payoff for good parenting.

blissed · 04-04-12 18:41:44

And don't go putting bullet holes in their laptop even though you might feel like it sometimes.

.

viva · 05-04-12 01:12:06

WLV612 wrote:

Can't say this enough, grandchildren are the big payoff for good parenting.

I'm interested in this as this is what my friend said too. Can you elaborate?

hyperballad · 05-04-12 06:15:19

I hope the big payoff is hanging out, growing and learning with the person I have made with my partner. Seeing a little personality emerge, with their own mannerisms and way of looking at me and the world.

As you said WLV, no expectations - so I won't be expecting grandchildren, of my children.

My mother harangs me for grandchildren all the time and has done so for years. It pisses me off. She wants something for herself, from me, but where I am at as a person and potential parent, is apparently irrelevent.

Also grandparents and future grandparents I highly recommend NOT ragging on your childrens name choices for their own offspring. (this also *really* pisses me off)

Basically, to me in terms of the big picture, it seems like parenting is a massive lesson in being as unselfish as possible - to support the development and learning of a person. No, I'm not going to let my kid run wild, but I hope I can be a good enough mum to help my kid achieve whatever it is they want out of life.

I think the hardest part will be watching them fall, both literally and figuratively. Also being open and frank about my own short comings and mistakes.

Although all of this^ is really deducted from my life experiences, reading ALL of the mommy blogs, interacting with my friends children, watching and spending time with other family members and when it comes down to it, like every other major life experience - I won't really, truly know until I do it.

I figure I just need to do as much reading, researching and of course, actual living until that time comes. I also feel that is it realllllly important to be as connected to my partner as possible and to build myself a little network to look to for help, support and poop patrol for the time when things are right.

In all the reading I've done lately the over arching message is 'nothing prepares you' for becoming a parent, but do really try to be as prepared as possible - know what resources are available to you, research your birthing options and make sure you have as much help and support as possible...

Sorry, that was much longer than I intended.

WLV612 · 05-04-12 11:43:31

Not all that long of a post hyperballad, and you express a lot of thoughts and observations that are well grounded.
There is no handbook for being a parent. Yeah, there are an untold number of publications you can purchase on how to be a parent, raise a child.
The best of those are printed on very soft paper because for all their intent, you might as well wipe your bum on them.
Everyday as a parent is different, every hour. No two children are the same, even twins and a child doesn't truly become predictable until about the age of 60.
Not meant to be humor. The hardest thing is watching them stumble and fall. You have to live with that, you're helpless to prevent the damage life inflicts on a person, you can only mitigate, buffer and prepare them for those falls, the, "Slings and arrows" if you will.
You sit in a hospital waiting room in a cold sweat, ready to shatter if the diagnoses is as bad as it can be. You listen to them cry through their bedroom door as some incident has broken their heart and yours as well. Ten minutes later they're up and out the door and they're ready to go again but you're not.
What are the rewards of being a parent? There are none. If you bring a child into this world expecting a return on your investment like a stock transaction, you've made a mistake. Your role is to support and develop them as hyperballad pointed out and I love this, "being as unselfish as possible." Bingo!
Should be carved into every parent's forehead.
Oh, you'll get a return and it'll come in a different guise than what you expect.

Grandchildren;
When you raise a child, they're in your face 24/7. You have to feed, clothe and care for them in every way possible. Plus working one, two or even three jobs, if you're a single parent. You have to be the bad guy who makes them accountable for their actions. There'll be nights when you pray for just one week off. Let someone else take over so you can get pissed on a nice sunny beach. Forget that. With grandchildren you can get to know them as people without all the responsibility of the day to day maintenance. You can be a positive influence because they won't tune you out. Most of all, you can actually be friends on an even plane once they reach a certain age.
I took my granddaughters to NYC for a week last year and I told them up front,"I ain't no baby sitter. We're three adults and you need to be prepared to act like one 'cause I'm not going to tell you what to do or how to act and if something happens to me, you'll have to step up and do what needs to be done." Best time we ever had. Showed them how the city's laid out, how to use the subway and made sure we all had our cell's charged. No, I'm not going to turn them out in the largest city in the world and not worry. I let them lead and I followed and once they I was sure they were good, then it was just three friends enjoying a week away from home. You can stand back with grandchildren and be friends. You can be upfront with them. Tell them about your flaws and mistakes and the stupid shit you did without coming off all, "Do as I say, not as I did."
You don't try to force yourself into their lives, you allow each other to find a comfort zone and the rest is pie.
Hard to pin point, define. They're just, for me, to see what I might have been but not have the regrets.
Now I've run on. Need coffee. Have a good day all.

Liandra_Dahl · 06-04-12 16:37:42

Hyperballad wrote:

Basically, to me in terms of the big picture, it seems like parenting is a massive lesson in being as unselfish as possible

...but watch out for martyrdom with that. The "as possible" is a good qualifier but specifically I would say some women (probably men too) sacrifice too much to motherhood, though perhaps this isn't actually best for their children it certainly keeps up appearances with the neighbours...so to speak. It's a balancing act of unselfishness and set an example that you as an individual have a right to pursue your own happiness too.

Last edited by Liandra_Dahl (06-04-12 16:38:31)

WLV612 · 06-04-12 17:11:28

Liandra_Dahl wrote:

It's a balancing act of unselfishness and set an example that you as an individual have a right to pursue your own happiness too.

That's the biggest mistake I made. I didn't leave room for my self. I could have used that advice a long time ago.
Excellent point.

sonice · 07-04-12 02:06:19

I think choosing not to have a child could be the highest act of unselfishness.

Biologically speaking a person that does not reproduce is unsuccessful. Genetic traits of a person without offspring end with them. Sexual reproduction is a basic human instinct that drives us and one of the reasons this website attracts its audience.

I could spout human population stats, earth resources and environmental impact blah, blah. I'll just say as a species we might be a little to successful. I don’t agree with China's one child polices that place restrictions on family. It is such a personal decision. The best thing we can do a create sustainable human population is to educate everyone about the world they live in, give them options and let them decide.

Last edited by sonice (07-04-12 02:08:23)

blissed · 07-04-12 12:57:19

At the moment human culture and technology is evolving far faster than DNA and if this trend continues it'll likely far surpass DNA as the dominant intelligence and life system in the universe. So in this hugely important era if you've left a mark on it, you may effect the future more than if you've had children.

Does Einstien's work have a bigger effect on the world than the fact that his children were walking about Yet due to the butterfly effect one tiny action by Jenifer Gates could have a more profound effect than her dad Bill Gates work.

So if you don't have kids and you simply exist today your having an effect on a human culture who's technology may likely dwarf both the earth and DNA.

Hope that makes sense because in my mind right now it does ha ha

.

Last edited by blissed (07-04-12 18:07:19)

WLV612 · 07-04-12 17:29:46

There's been a lot of great posts on this topic and I hope Ms. Viva came away with her answer or at least got the idea that she asked a question only she can answer in the future, regardless of the choice she makes.
There is no such thing as good or bad choices. The consequences however, are a different story.
I've always ascribed to the idea that you can do anything you care to do on this planet in your life, just make sure no one else pays the price if you make a poor decision.

viva · 12-04-12 01:15:58

Hehe, I've had a wonderful time reading these posts And feeling warm and fuzzy, imagining my plan to travel oh-so-slowly overland to Europe when I get pregnant one day.

But no, no answer. This is just the wrong audience to poll, although Sonice seems to have rung in with an answer pertinent to the original question. I guess I am looking for thoughtful women of all ages who do not want to have children and I want to ask them lots of questions about what that is like for them. Where can I find them?! Is there a childless womens' home?

#1 02-04-12 03:40:16

oops, babies

#2 02-04-12 11:43:06

Re: oops, babies

#3 02-04-12 13:41:16

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#4 02-04-12 15:50:13

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#5 02-04-12 17:00:33

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#6 03-04-12 01:45:24

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#7 03-04-12 07:13:04

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#8 03-04-12 10:53:31

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#9 03-04-12 14:04:38

Re: oops, babies

#10 03-04-12 15:01:31

Re: oops, babies

#11 03-04-12 16:21:19

Re: oops, babies

#12 04-04-12 02:18:07

Re: oops, babies

#13 04-04-12 03:08:10

Re: oops, babies

#14 04-04-12 13:18:11

Re: oops, babies

#15 04-04-12 18:41:44

Re: oops, babies

#16 05-04-12 01:12:06

Re: oops, babies

#17 05-04-12 06:15:19

Re: oops, babies

#18 05-04-12 11:43:31

Re: oops, babies

#19 06-04-12 16:37:42

Re: oops, babies

#20 06-04-12 17:11:28

Re: oops, babies

#21 07-04-12 02:06:19

Re: oops, babies

#22 07-04-12 12:57:19

Re: oops, babies

#23 07-04-12 17:29:46

Re: oops, babies

#24 12-04-12 01:15:58

Re: oops, babies

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