pick me up, artists

ifeelalive · 23-03-12 23:48:54

Whoa! Viva, back that truck up. We need to talk. I will try to be in touch this eve either via forum or email. There is just too much there for me to respond to right now in the time I have available.

Last edited by ifeelalive (23-03-12 23:50:31)

Liandra_Dahl · 25-03-12 13:19:05

viva wrote:

Part of me feels that if you walk through the world without a healthy dose of cynicism informing your choices, it's your own damn fault when you end up wiring money to Nigeria, putting in 60 hours a week at the firm without any potential for upward movement, dating a guy who says he's an author but who never seems to write, trying to find gullible on the ceiling, paypal-ing the rest of your income to Invisible Children, etc etc etc.
The other part feels that it's not your fault if you were born less intelligent than others - in fact, the idea of an average intelligence necessitates half the population falling below it. But can we avoid responsibility for our choices by claiming "I'm too dumb to have insisted on being fully informed"?

To a very limited extent I agree with your initial sentiment but I see it as experience that guides it not necessarily intelligence. This is a cliche but "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" covers it for me. I don't think it is stupid to be trusting but it should have limits and boundaries. Trust is a process that grows with evidence in each situation or should shrink relatively. We all learn from our mistakes and our own patterns that are failing us with trust. That could be patterns of the overly gullible or also overly cynical and suspicious because you are afraid to be made to look 'stupid' or 'gullible' you take no risks out of pride. I would say, though I am intelligent in other areas I was initially gullible as a first reaction, which has been a source of embarrassment a few times. However, this could never have changed if I never owned my part in that process. I've learnt from being foolish several times to research and wait for sufficient evidence before making important decisions. Another, approval seeking behaviour that was detrimental was keeping silent when I had doubts because of that desire not to disrupt or displease another I had to force myself to listen to and speak my doubts immediately and clearly. I'd love to say that doing this has always been met well and my fears where unfounded but to the contrary in doing this I have been in very hostile situations but even so this is good... it forces someone to show their hand early and prevents you from going down whatever road they had planned to lead you down under false pretences. I would say though I am STILL learning this stuff at 32. I don't see acknowledging and taking accountability for unhealthy patterns as taking on any fault or guilt though.

So, yes, I agree that to think of yourself as a victim, especially in relation to romantic relationships usually comes with an unhealthy abdication of responsibility for your own choices and patterns of who you choose to get involved with. I think experience, willingness to self analyse and enough self awareness to acknowledge your patterns and self control to change them significantly are what will contribute to someone of that repetitive 'victim' mentality finding their way out of it. I would like to believe that even a relatively low but functional intelligence is more than capable of that with the right resources and support, which is readily available for those who wish to find it.

Last edited by Liandra_Dahl (25-03-12 13:20:17)

viva · 26-03-12 00:35:15

Liandra, thanks for commenting on this and pulling me up (in the extremely kind way that you did) - if no one had I was about to ask why. I wrote that and immediately found fault with my arguments. Maybe not fault, exactly, but a taste of what's unyielding and harsh inside me. I think that hardline opinions have validity, but I believe that I am capable of telling the truth without losing sight of compassion. I didn't quite achieve that in my last post and I appreciate you pointing that out.

The reason I am so neurotic on this topic is because I'm as you describe your younger self, Liandra - gullible and approval-seeking. I'm definitely someone who could be hoodwinked by seduction techniques - and I would only blame myself. My defense mechanism against these traits is to be super unforgiving of them in others - well, in theory. Nice, huh? Well, recognizing that helps me be more compassionate in practice, but I still haven't achieved the ability to disrupt or displease even when called for.

Anyway the concept of victim hood continues to be very important to me, but goes perhaps a little too deep for me to be at the stage where I can fully articulate anything about it.

hyperballad · 26-03-12 00:58:00

I think what has emerged time and time again throughout this dialogue is that there are so many shades of grey.

Defining shades of grey in legal terms is really hard to do and I do not trust my police force and government to work that stuff out for me, let alone wanting them to enforce it. I don't want them too either, if I'm never stupid, if I'm never burnt then how can I make better decisions in future?

For every fuck up, for every time you're 'swindled' there is a big lesson, a lesson that I personally don't tend to forget. Do we really need an outside authority to define for us what deception is and then enforce that on our behalf?

Also in terms of the PUA in these scenerios, I think most assume that this vile, manipulating person has no consequences to their actions. I have known people like this and I can say it is certainly not the case. These people seem to seldom be able to allow anyone to get close, even if they do get together with someone they're genuinely into, they instinctively lie and schmooze.

Can you imagine what it's like to not actually use your own personality in sex or relationships? You're getting sex on the basis of deception and a false persona and I cannot believe that doesn't eventually create significant damage.

This has been my experience with these sorts of people, however so it is quite limited.

Victimhood is a very complex topic for me and requires a little more thought on my behalf.

blissed · 26-03-12 21:11:00

I think wether your in a friendship or sexual relationship with someone dominant, who's hot tempered you can get into a habit of not wanting to provoke that temper that becomes almost unconscious and made worse because everyone around them is doing this too, and so they get away little by little with being more and more unreasonable to you, sometimes as just a string of little humiliations to you and each time they see that unreasonable state as the new status quo that they're perfectly satisfied with. So when you do give them your information in the nicest way you can, they're outraged and will accuse you of being unreasonable. If they can't see the list of unfairness to you at this point even after sleeping on it and don't apologise, then I don't think they ever will and your better off leaving and if possible never having anything else to do with them, or you'll be torn because their temper and unreasonableness isn't the only part of them, and you'll be losing all the things about them you love, but in the end you have to make a decision about what's best for you and that their are plenty of other people to care about who'll appreciate you and all the good things you do for them.

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viva · 27-03-12 00:23:54

Now we're really off-topic, but people who have loved ones with seemingly unresolvable anger issues should consider packing them off to a Vipassana course. Worked wonders for us.

hyperballad · 27-03-12 01:11:57

Don't think my Dad would be down with that unfortunately.

blissed · 27-03-12 03:05:53

Thanks Viva that's interesting that it worked. I've been on the receiving end of people with this problem a few times in my life. One in particular recognised they had a problem, but spoke with Jesus who forgave them, So they didn't feel the need to apologise to anyone and they're subconscious hasn't changed so they still think their unreasonable behaviour is reasonable, worse, their dominant personality gets them lots of friends, aproval, popularity and kudos but they're lonely and they still haven't been able to sustain a successful intimate relationship, and they're dominance indimidation zone of unreality is still intact. People who aren't that close have no incentive to tell them the truth, niether can people who get closer to them. Definitely I'm a victim of them, but they're a victim of themselves too and perhaps a Vipassana course is worth trying. But as Hyperballad has said getting them to try the course would be so hard that if you get to a point where they do, perhps you could consider the problem is half solved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNmxxbqJ … ure=fvwrel

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Last edited by blissed (27-03-12 03:15:10)

viva · 27-03-12 03:47:01

blissed wrote:

perhaps a Vipassana course is worth trying. But as Hyperballad has said getting them to try the course would be so hard that if you get to a point where they do, perhps you could consider the problem is half solved.
.

Not exactly half-solved, but admitting you have a problem is, as always, the first step towards fixing it. The Vipassana thing is interesting because so many people around me have started doing it - like world-changing inventions, it seems that when a good idea comes around, everyone gets a touch of it. Or else it's an association fallacy - one I saw it, I started to see it everywhere. It also seems to be a domino effect, one person coming back raving about how great it is causes others to perk up and take interest. Since it's free, challenging, and out of the ordinary many people gravitate towards it - the fact that Vipassana centers exist all over the world in convenient locations helps too.

Liandra_Dahl · 28-03-12 04:52:09

Viva, I think it is almost ubiquitous to be most critical in others of the traits in yourself that you feel are dysfunctional or perceive as a weakness. In fact as soon as someone pointed that out to me it has reversed and become a great resource for introspection as an indicator of what I need to address personally. I have to say you got to that point of self awareness with it much quicker than I did. I was still running around pointing my angry finger at everyone up until I was about 28. I have no problem with you taking a hard line and I have a firm belief in tough love in it's place. If I had not had a partner in my late 20's who absolutely tore apart my dysfunctions and personality flaws and patterns I would probably still be in a self destructive state of victimhood. I hated hearing it at the time and took it very badly. The only credit I will give myself for it is that I didn't bury myself in denial and indignation but took it on and then took it further still and I continue to do so. I'v seen many cases where a person will never take on full responsibility for the behaviours and choices and even when they apologise seek ways to hold the person they're apologising to responsible for their actions.

Back on topic, PUA, yes I've known one, and I've known him very well. I know exactly what you mean Hyperballad. I would say the consequences for him are far worse than the consequences for the women he manipulates. Inside he is miserable and lonely and full of hate and is terrified of being loving towards the people he loves and being responsible to the duty of care that love brings with it.

I've got to also agree that I don't want that kind of police or legislative intervention into our private lives and the grey areas of misdemeanors in consensual love and sex. The idea is chilling as I can all too easily see it being misused or expanded to criminalise people who do not live heterosexual monogamous lives.

#51 23-03-12 23:48:54

Re: pick me up, artists

#52 25-03-12 13:19:05

Re: pick me up, artists

#53 26-03-12 00:35:15

Re: pick me up, artists

#54 26-03-12 00:58:00

Re: pick me up, artists

#55 26-03-12 21:11:00

Re: pick me up, artists

#56 27-03-12 00:23:54

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#57 27-03-12 01:11:57

Re: pick me up, artists

#58 27-03-12 03:05:53

Re: pick me up, artists

#59 27-03-12 03:47:01

Re: pick me up, artists

#60 28-03-12 04:52:09

Re: pick me up, artists

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