Gender reassignment.

blissed · 15-10-06 04:59:29

This is very difficult for me to say, but I can't think of a better place for me to say it. I've given this a lot of thought over the years and after a great deal of soul searching as to whether I should or shouldn't and taking the opinions of the people I respect and love. I've definitely decided now to start a thread about gender reassignment. Do you think it's a good idea.

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Burlesque · 15-10-06 06:13:06

Can't say I do, no.

Burlesque.

polarchill · 15-10-06 07:50:27

Burlesque wrote:

Can't say I do, no.
Burlesque.

Wait. Gender reassignment, or starting a thread about it?
--
Polarchill "And which one of you should I have asked? And why isn't my salad here yet?"

padraic · 15-10-06 09:04:20

Liandra wrote:

... well I think if gender were more fluid, and the world less judgemental and puritanical, this would be less needed in the case of gender reassignment. However, as we don't live in Liandra's ideal world I can see why it is most often necessary to go all the way and just make the leap of gender and sex, in order that you might be accepted without the dangerous, prolific, traumatic and unnecessary physical and psychological abuse that gender bending attracts.

This may be so. However I have known of persons who have felt all their lives that they were born into the 'wrong' body. For them, it is much more a case of SELF-acceptance that moves them to consider such a drastic step as surgery. They don't want to have the genitals of a gender that feels alien to them --- they want their inner worlds and external appearance to be one and the same. I have even known of a very complicated couple in which one partner was a woman undergoing hormonal and other treatments to become reassigned as male. while the other partner was born male and was undergoing corresponding treatments to become female. There's no question, though, that society is horribly judgemental and anti-sexuality in general, and is more often than not very cruel to anyone perceived as 'different'. Orientation, if not physical gender, may well really be much more fluid than is generally acknowledged. I'm thinking here of persons such as the American writer and activist Jan Clausen, who spent many years as a prominent member of the lesbian community but to her own profound surprise eventually found her ideal partner in a male. I'm sure she would never have predicted this, and I'm equally sure that formerly straight people who later in life become gay or bisexual persons didn't 'plan' it --- they evolved into it, with the same fluidity that belies the notion that we are all born with an unchanging identity.

polarchill · 15-10-06 10:24:57

Liandra wrote:

Blissed are you thinking about doing it or just interested in discussing the topic?
Personally I think gender is mostly constructed and contrived to suit the current hegemonic groups idea of how everyone else should be. Gender isn't synonymous with sex in my eyes though. I think gender should be protean and we should be less judgemental and afraid of those that have either ambiguous gender signals or those who choose to display the gender signs and signals that are usually attributed to the opposite sex from them.

I agree strongly with Liandra on this point. Sexuality is a very fluid thing. There are many ways to express a "crossing over" between gender preferences (or a crossing back and forth over the line, such as in my case) without actually going to the extreme of a literal change of sexuality.

This is not a simple concept to wrap the mind around, however, and I'm not just talking about the judgmental world at large. For example, I couldn't openly admit to MYSELF that I was bisexual until I was about 25 years old, simply because I had somehow got the notion stuck in my head that I had to be either straight or gay, no ifs ands or buts. Imagine my confusion, being a young man mainly attracted to women, but occasionally finding myself in homosexual encounters (particulary during my college years, that most experimental time in life), until I could no longer say to myself that "it was just a drunken accident".

At first I thought I was afraid to say I was gay because the world in general, my friends, or my (yikes) family wouldn't WANT me to be gay (especially the family, of course). Eventually, though, I realized that the reason I didn't want to come out to the world was because I WASN'T gay. The truth was, MOST of the time I preferred being with women. Looking back, I could see that over the years I had fallen hard for several women, whereas while I occasionally liked to have sex with another man, I never really ran across one that I felt like being "more than friends" with. It was at that point that my head began to clear itself, and I could finally begin assigning my own sexual identity, outside of the traditional restrictions that I had always assumed that I was boxed into.

Cut to a few years later. I'm what I call a "10% Bisexual". By that I mean that 90% of the time, it's just my girlfriend and me. But I do keep a little gay porn around the house, just to scratch the itch, and I have my partner's permission to every now and then go and have a "night out", no questions asked. I've been open with her about my sexuality since the beginning, and I hope that the honesty has helped to keep our relationship strong (and I'll admit, it was the first time I've tried this much openness; my last relationship, which lasted over three years, was with a bisexual woman, but I never admitted a thing to her).

The world isn't always friendly to gays. Homosexuals, on the other hand, can also be a bit judgmental on the subject of bisexuality, feeling that it is wanting the best of both worlds, without helping to take a stand for the gay community. At the very least bisexuality is often seen as sexual confusion (for the record: the girlfriend half-jokingly calls it "just being greedy"). In my case, however, it is just part of who I am. I don't think about it any more than I do the color of my eyes.

My question to anyone who wants to assign a gender to him/herself would be the same one I would ask to anyone who was considering the more conservative (Boy! who would have thought twenty years ago that we could refer to homosexuality in that way!) step of simply coming out of the closet. That question is: Does this "new you" define who you are, or is it simply a matter of who you want to have sex with? If the answer is the latter, then gender reassignment may be a tad extreme. Unless you are absolutely convinced that you belong ENTIRELY on the other side of that line, don't cross it. Just enjoy the fact that the line is there, and carry an eraser.
--
Polarchill "now enough seriousness; where the hell IS my salad?"

The_Elfman · 15-10-06 12:38:35

Thank you for your post polarchill. I appreciate and respect your candour and I didn’t want to ignore it in addressing blissed’s original question. I’m pleased that you have at last found your sexual “niche” and that you now have a partner who recognises and is sympathetic to your identity. However:

polarchill wrote:

I agree strongly with Liandra on this point. Sexuality is a very fluid thing. There are many ways to express a "crossing over" between gender preferences (or a crossing back and forth over the line, such as in my case) without actually going to the extreme of a literal change of sexuality.

Not for everyone it isn’t. As with the case of transvestism we must be careful not to confuse gender orientation with sexual preference. The two are not necessarily linked. I have only known two people well who went through the process of gender reorientation. One I grew up with. In that case it was clearly a matter of a man born in a woman’s body. He went through the process about thirty years ago when social prejudices were much stronger and medical procedures far less advanced than they are now. It was a very difficult and painful time for him but he never regretted it. It was something he had to do to find peace and acceptance of himself. We lost contact about 20 years ago so I don’t know if he regretted it in later life but knowing him as well as I did I doubt it.

The second person I knew who did this went the other way. Biological man to woman. In her case sexual preference had nothing to do with it. Her sexual interests were purely towards women. In this case though the outcome was not a happy one. The medical processes and transition from male to female were not as successful and complete as she had hoped. Later cosmetic surgery was not well done and this, coupled with the inevitable prejudices she encountered wrought considerable psychological and emotional damage. When last I knew her she had become a bitter, self loathing travesty of all that she had once aspired to become completely fixated on her impossible objective of becoming the “perfect” woman.

Blissed if you are certain that you need to do this you have my total support and good wishes. You are no doubt aware that even beginning the process is not easy. You will have to go through a long period on counselling before you will even be considered suitable for the process. If you are the road is then a long and difficult one and strewn with many dangers and heartaches but no doubt you have considered all this. I only hope that whichever path you choose you eventually find peace.

Elfman

blissed · 15-10-06 13:38:23

blissed wrote:

I've definitely decided now to start a thread about gender reassignment.

Ha ha I just said I'm starting a thread about it I'm not changing my gender, tho I had at times felt I'd be more comfortable as a sapphic woman but really because the examples of what it is to be a man seemed so unappealing to me and many still do. but in time I've met quite a few men who's example is really good and thought oh yeah! if I was a girl I'd want to be with them. I told someone that just yesterday that I correspond with in Oz (no it wasn't Richard ) I think many people who want to gender reassign need to broaden their mind a little, but thats a criticism based in love not hate. I've got more to say and theres loads of contributions here to respond to (thanks polarchill ) but I work on a Sunday so I've got to go to work. I'll write more later. Nice to see you back Li.

Last edited by blissed (15-10-06 13:40:37)

polarchill · 15-10-06 13:45:36

The_Elfman wrote:

Blissed if you are certain that you need to do this you have my total support and good wishes. You are no doubt aware that even beginning the process is not easy. You will have to go through a long period on counselling before you will even be considered suitable for the process. If you are the road is then a long and difficult one and strewn with many dangers and heartaches but no doubt you have considered all this. I only hope that whichever path you choose you eventually find peace.
Elfman

Seconded. As you said, Blissed, you couldn't have chosen a better place to raise the subject. I've gotta tell you, it's a warm, open bunch here. Plus, you see women having MAJOR orgasms. Big plus.
--
Polarchill

Burlesque · 15-10-06 15:07:55

Well well well, Blissed, I'm quite sure you didn't expect this massive a reaction to your thread. I guess you'll just have to go through that sex-change now in order not to disappoint everyone.

Burlesque.

gala · 15-10-06 17:04:00

yes, gender reassignment procedures are a-ok.

in fact, any sort of gender expression is a-ok. and any combination of gendered characteristics are ok for any person who has any sex assignment or gender identity. i see gender as a big pool of items and ideas and feelings that i can pick from, and just because they have a blue boy tag on them doesn't mean i can't have them. i can have any one i want. even the andro ones.

sex is something which you are assigned. your gender may have nothing to do with what someone said you were when you were born. if it doesn't, you should do whatever you like to get things in order for yourself. if you were assigned a sex (that means all of you, most likely), you might want to at some point consider what effects that has on your life and your conception of self and whether or not those things work well for you. i think about it all the time, and i frequently get to shed old bad things associated with my sex assignment and pick new, totally sweet ones that have to do with something which wasn't considered at the time of assignment: me.

havelock ellis and his sexologist and evolutionist predecessors suggested that all humans are inherently bisexual, with 50% male and 50% female 'germs.' the process of fetal development featured a raging battle between the male and female sides, and eventually one valiantly conquered, rendering a person male or female. people with "aberrant" sexual practices or desires, or those who were biologically intersexed, were the unfortunate cases in which one side failed to thoroughly obliterate the other, leaving one with a 70-30 or 43-57 or other confused split of sex-associated germs. what's your split? or are you 100% pure?

my germs were armed by u.s. contra efforts, and all of them have been killed or displaced by the war.

bodyhead · 15-10-06 17:18:50

I tend to agree with Liandra, but I haven't worked out my ideas yet. I find the phenomenon of the "weekend gay" quite interesting. People can transform their whole manner, way of speaking etc. on a Friday night.

What I dislike intensely is that almost the only representatives of gay men on British TV (incl. programmes from the US are very camp, and the impression is given that male gay = camp.
Lesbians are still almost invisible.

Though I should admit I don't watch much TV.

Burlesque · 15-10-06 18:44:22

It's nice to have interests. I think everyone should have interests.

Burlesque.

bodyhead · 15-10-06 23:58:06

Burlesque wrote:

It's nice to have interests. I think everyone should have interests.

Yes, but actually learning something would be nice as well.
Anyway, I have a butterfly mind. I'm already bored of whatever it was I was writing about.

Adagio · 16-10-06 01:31:45

bodyhead wrote:

... I haven't worked out my ideas yet...

I, too, haven't worked out my ideas. The whole notion of "gender fluidity" is so incredibly new to me. Actually it's not the notion, it's my willingness to acknowlege, explore or consider it that is brand new. I appreciate that I have this forum as a place to explore. Thanks.

blissed · 16-10-06 03:13:12

Burlesque wrote:

Well well well, Blissed, I'm quite sure you didn't expect this massive a reaction to your thread. I guess you'll just have to go through that sex-change now in order not to disappoint everyone.
Burlesque.

If you remember it was you who asked me to gender reasign in the first place.
You said "just think of the fun we could have if you were a woman" I think your a bit presumptuous really. Who's saying that if I was a woman I'd go for you anyway. I'm not your sex puppet!! I'd be too good for you

Anyway, David Bowie is an excellent example (to anyone who's thinking of reassigning) to actually be themselves, Tho if it was possible in the future to to transform into the opposite sex and do it totally convincingly, I think it would be nice to try being a woman for 6 months, to see if I liked it

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Last edited by blissed (16-10-06 04:21:17)

nihpuad · 16-10-06 06:52:35

blissed wrote:

...if it was possible in the future to to transform into the opposite sex and do it totally convincingly, I think it would be nice to try being a woman for 6 months, to see if I liked it

I've thought about this some, as one of my favorite science fiction authors, John Varley, has written a number of stories set in a future where sex change surgery is easy, completely successful, and reversible.

Now, personally, I've never had a nanosecond's doubt that my sense of gender matched my physical equipment... but I am a curious cat, and given the chance to "vacation" as a woman, I'd do it in a heartbeat. IMHO, nobody could watch the videos here and at BA and not want to know what that feels like from the inside.

Here's a question: As a straight male persona temporarily inhabiting a female body, would I be squeamish about having sex with men? I don't think so... I mean that would be a big part of the point of doing it in the first place... but how can anyone really know how they'd react in such a totally impossible hypothetical situation.

Here's another question: Would looks matter? In Varley's stories, you could (IIRC) pretty much design your own body, but suppose it weren't so completely certain you'd come out good-looking? The sensitive-new-age-guy answer would be that it shouldn't matter... but since I've already used the vacation metaphor, I have to admit that, while I don't require 5-star accommodations, there's a limit to how grungy the hotel could be for me to still call it a vacation. That is, I wouldn't have to be the second coming of Angelina Jolie, but I'd want my temporary body to be healthy and at least reasonably sexually attractive in traditional terms.

Anyone else? I'm particularly interested in hearing from women if they'd be interested in "slumming" in a male body?

BTW, as far-fetched as this line of speculation seems, there's at least one real-world case of a guy who got C-cup breast implants on a bet, and kept them for 8 years (at least; I don't know whether he still has them).

polarchill · 16-10-06 13:06:13

dauphinb2 wrote:

Now, personally, I've never had a nanosecond's doubt that my sense of gender matched my physical equipment... but I am a curious cat, and given the chance to "vacation" as a woman, I'd do it in a heartbeat. IMHO, nobody could watch the videos here and at BA and not want to know what that feels like from the inside.
Here's a question: As a straight male persona temporarily inhabiting a female body, would I be squeamish about having sex with men? I don't think so... I mean that would be a big part of the point of doing it in the first place... but how can anyone really know how they'd react in such a totally impossible hypothetical situation.

Impossible within our lifetime anyway, I'd imagine. Then again, when I was a kid, no one I knew had yet imagined sitting at a desk and casually communicating with people all around the world while munching on snacks and channel surfing. We were still thinking about flying cars.

I have no doubt that if it was the kind of thing that could be "switched back and forth" quickly, so that people could do it over the course of a week or weekend off (imagine some kind of sci-fi "consciousness switch", like in one old episode of Star Trek I remember), "gender-bending" would be an immensely popular form of recreation.

THEN the right-wing bible-thumpers would try to get involved, calling it some kind of abomination, because playing around with this type of thing would greatly change everyone's view of sexuality. Young people would grow up knowing that they really DID have a choice as to what they wanted to be. Some people would not want to switch back, and would arrange contracts to permanently switch with like-minded individuals. Some people would switch back, but would have found out that they liked sex with their OWN sex enough that even in their own bodies they'd continue to do so. The world would never be the same.

The government would get in there, of course. There would be all sorts of forms to fill out, making sure that stalkers and perverted relatives were prevented from switching bodies and having sex with unsuspecting stalkees or unsuspecting relatives, respectively.

For free spirits patient with lengthy paperwork (like myself), it would be a hell of a vacation.

blissed · 16-10-06 14:32:04

dauphinb2 wrote:

Here's another question: Would looks matter?

Ha ha I think you'd need 4 vacations to answer that question

1/ As a woman who's beauty was universally recognised

2/ As a woman who's beauty wasn't universally recognised

Then 2 more similar vacations as a man. I'd say that looks matter to your libido if not your conscious mind. The libido is the protector of the species, if it allows very minor degradation's in survivability over praps 200 or 300 generations the species dies out. So I think looks relate to the survivability of the species.

Professor Blissed HND. BSE. HrDrOBS

.

Last edited by blissed (16-10-06 14:33:58)

aven frey · 17-10-06 01:33:28

I saw quite a heartening short doco recently about a girl (I think she was German) who was born physically a boy. She knew instinctivly at a young age (she was still in primary school when the film was made) that she was female and happened to have parents who were very open and supportive about this. At school this kid was a he and on the weekends a she. The film showed the girl going to a party on the weekend as a girl with school friends who knew her as a boy. The other kids were totally accepting and this girl seemed to be very well adjusted for what could potentially be a very traumatic childhood.

Burlesque · 17-10-06 01:48:49

blissed wrote:

The libido is the protector of the species, .

With all due respect, this is of course bullshit . The libido is still working along the same lines of "reasoning" that it did five million years ago, and that no longer has any bearing on survivability as it functions or should function in the society of today. The qualities that enabled survival then still arouse the libido today, but no longer serve any purpose whatsoever in terms of survival. Human social "evolution" has long since moved ahead of its much slower biological equivalent.

Burlesque.

Last edited by Burlesque (17-10-06 11:59:18)

gala · 17-10-06 04:50:47

Adagio wrote:

I, too, haven't worked out my ideas. The whole notion of "gender fluidity" is so incredibly new to me. Actually it's not the notion, it's my willingness to acknowlege, explore or consider it that is brand new. I appreciate that I have this forum as a place to explore. Thanks.

i think it's totally the coolest that you're dealing with this now. smashing the gender binary is super fun. i commend you for stepping up to it.

blissed · 17-10-06 04:59:41

Burlesque wrote:

blissed wrote:
The libido is the protector of the species, .
With all due respect, this is of course bullshit . The libido is still working along the same lines of "reasoning" that it did five million years ago, and that no longer has any bearing on survivability as it functions or should function in the society of today. The qualities that enabled survival then still arouse the libido today, but no longer serve any purpose whatsoever in terms of survival. Human social "evolution" has long since moved ahead of its much slower biological equivalent.
Burlsesque.

I'm gonna raid my sources of info to answer you. So when it comes to the libido protecting the species I'd like to quote professor Iona Dicky

"5 million years divided by 25 years = 200,000 generations, the libido hasn't done badly"

and a great quote that seems to directly answer your point by Harden Long from his book Prehistory and the male orgasm.

"The libido chooses mental or physical competence, potence and fertility. if the requirements for survivability in today's society are that you need to be an incompetent, impotent, infertile mental and physical wreck, then I'd concede that you have a point."

This was countered in a pier review paper by Dr Hugh G Rection, specifically referring to Harden Long.

"He's a very wise man. but what he's expressing is the male view thats been dominant throughout history. But now for the first time really women are completely free to make their choice and the qualities they are selecting are a fair bit more diverse and complex. Adding an extra diversity of qualities to a species can only be a good thing"

So it seems that there are people much more intelligent than you that seem to agree with you Burlesque

Last edited by blissed (17-10-06 05:24:05)

blissed · 17-10-06 05:18:41

max wrote:

I saw quite a heartening short doco recently about a girl (I think she was German) who was born physically a boy. She knew instinctivly at a young age (she was still in primary school when the film was made) that she was female and happened to have parents who were very open and supportive about this. At school this kid was a he and on the weekends a she. The film showed the girl going to a party on the weekend as a girl with school friends who knew her as a boy. The other kids were totally accepting and this girl seemed to be very well adjusted for what could potentially be a very traumatic childhood.

That's the great thing about kids, they are totally accepting, be nice if people stayed like that as they grew up.

.

Burlesque · 17-10-06 11:58:53

There is no doubt in what mind I have that Iona Dicky, Harden Long and Hugh G Rection (and their no doubt similarly amusingly named esteemed colleagues) are more intelligent than I am (it doesn't take much, after all), but it seems to me that all the libido manages in terms of survivability is quantity.

Since it's all the rage (sometimes literally) to parade one's more or less maniacal views, I'll harass you with a little bit of Burlesqueiana: I was, on a couple of occasions, forced to seriously consider whether or not to have children. In spite of being pressured by the lady involved in the equation, I finally made up my mind that I am never going to have children. I know what insecurities, insanities, addictions and genetic fallibilities have plagued my family over the last 400 years (having done a bit of genealogical research), and I have come to the conclusion that I will not be guilty of producing yet another generation of these bloody genes. It would be unfair to the child and it would add nothing to the world, except one more human being, and there are - as you may have noticed - quite a few of those around as it is.

Burlesque.

Burlesque · 17-10-06 14:54:24

polarchill wrote:

Burlesque wrote:
Can't say I do, no.
Burlesque.
Wait. Gender reassignment, or starting a thread about it?

The thread, Polarchill.

Burlesque.

#1 15-10-06 04:59:29

Gender reassignment.

#2 15-10-06 06:13:06

Re: Gender reassignment.

#3 15-10-06 07:50:27

Re: Gender reassignment.

#4 15-10-06 09:04:20

Re: Gender reassignment.

#5 15-10-06 10:24:57

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#6 15-10-06 12:38:35

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#7 15-10-06 13:38:23

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#8 15-10-06 13:45:36

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#9 15-10-06 15:07:55

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#10 15-10-06 17:04:00

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#11 15-10-06 17:18:50

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#12 15-10-06 18:44:22

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#13 15-10-06 23:58:06

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#14 16-10-06 01:31:45

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#15 16-10-06 03:13:12

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#16 16-10-06 06:52:35

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#17 16-10-06 13:06:13

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#20 17-10-06 01:48:49

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#23 17-10-06 05:18:41

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#25 17-10-06 14:54:24

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