Sybian

Tenuki · 01-07-07 01:21:11

This is my first post here. I'm glad to see more ladies posting and not just all men! I love to see the clips where the ladies use the vibrators and the even the scenes in the bathtub as those are my favorite methods. I was just wondering if there were any film clips of ladies using a Sybian? I love seeing that as well although I have never used one. Has anyone here used one? Is it as intense as it looks? I've had monster Big O's with the Magic Wand so haven't seen the need to spend the big bucks for a Sybian although it looks intriguing.

The_Elfman · 02-07-07 11:36:39

And noisy. Think of the neighbours .

GregoryS · 03-07-07 00:55:19

I bought one for a girlfriend (she left and now it sits, unused) and she said it was the most intense sexual experience, bar none. Kinda made me feel inadequate for a while, in fact. But, if you can get your "hands" on one - they are expensive - at least you have her user testimonial to go by.

chta919 · 14-07-07 15:28:28

i've never used one myself. chuck says he'd get me one but that i may decide i wouldn't need him for sex anymore, especially now that mollie and i are having fun together. of course there is also the question of where we would hide it from the girls.

but i'd love to try it at least once before i die.

deb (or dee i answer to both. lol)

nihpuad · 15-07-07 19:12:33

chta919 wrote:

of course there is also the question of where we would hide it from the girls.

Would you really need to? I thought y'all had adopted a very open stance with them regarding sex and masturbation; why not explain it to them, rather than hiding it?

chta919 · 19-07-07 03:32:05

nihpuad wrote:

chta919 wrote:
of course there is also the question of where we would hide it from the girls.
Would you really need to? I thought y'all had adopted a very open stance with them regarding sex and masturbation; why not explain it to them, rather than hiding it?

Chuck here. I will try to answer this since Deb's already in bed asleep. Yes, we have adopted an open stance with the girls, but really only with the older one at this time, who has since spoken to her mom about her first orgasm, so the openness is working as far as keeping the lines of communication open. The nine-year-old has not had "that talk" yet, other than what her sister probably shared, of course, but she still hasn't spoken to either Deb or me about masturbation or the more intimate details of sex itself for that matter. Deb plans "that talk" for her 10th birthday, which will be in a couple of weeks. Maybe after that talk happens we can buy one, but I would still be afraid the girls would want to "borrow" it when we aren't home. It's one thing for a grown woman who knows about the intimacy that the real thing offers to use such a tool for personal enjoyment, but it's quite another for a girl who's never experienced the real thing, especially a twelve-year-old, to find such a wonderful tool. I could picture them becoming a bit too attached to artificial means. I'm not saying masturbation is or should ever be considered a "bad" alternative. It's just that it shouldn't be a fixation to the point of being dissatisfied with the "real thing," which I think could occur with the strong orgasms the sybian apparently gives a woman, should it be experienced at such a young age. In essence, I'm trying to save some poor young man the humiliation of being cast aside for an advanced vibrator. It's true as well that Deb has a vibrator and keeps it in the usual place--the bedside drawer--but from what I've heard, a "normal" vibrator is a tinker toy compared to a sybian, which is why they are so expensive, I would imagine. I, too, have heard from a couple of women who had used the sybian, and they said the sybian produced the most intense orgasms they had ever had.

Last edited by chta919 (19-07-07 03:34:05)

nihpuad · 19-07-07 05:52:57

chta919 wrote:

Yes, we have adopted an open stance with the girls, but really only with the older one at this time, who has since spoken to her mom about her first orgasm, so the openness is working as far as keeping the lines of communication open. The nine-year-old has not had "that talk" yet, other than what her sister probably shared, of course, but she still hasn't spoken to either Deb or me about masturbation or the more intimate details of sex itself for that matter. Deb plans "that talk" for her 10th birthday, which will be in a couple of weeks. Maybe after that talk happens we can buy one, but I would still be afraid the girls would want to "borrow" it when we aren't home.

Just to be clear, I wasn't really suggesting you turn your preteen daughters (honestly, I'd forgotten the younger one was quite that young) on to an industrial-strength wank machine! Really, my comment was about 15% tongue-in-cheek, and as for the rest... well, I only meant that since you have been (or will be, as appropriate) open with the girls, it might not be necessary to hide something like a Sybian, or to be coy about what it's for. Frankly, it seems like it would be easier to keep them from experimenting if you simply showed it to them and told them it was Mommy's private thing, off-limits to them for now, rather than trying to hide it and having them stumble across it. Still, I can see where it would be simpler yet just to avoid the issue altogether!

I have to tell you how very impressed I am with y'all's fearlessly honest approach to parenting. I think it's absolutely the right thing to do, and I wish I'd had the courage to take that approach with my own daughter when she was that age (not that I think she's at all troubled in that area, but still...). If it's not too much to ask, I wonder if you two have discussed what (if anything) and when you'll tell the girls about Mollie?

One thing's sure: You guys are going to have the most well adjusted, open-minded daughters on your block. I congratulate you!

chta919 · 19-07-07 07:16:32

It's fine. I understood your point and the tongue-in-cheek aspect to it, and I also knew you weren't suggesting anything, but thanks for saying so. Also thank you for your nice comments.

Actually, our older daughter knows what's going on with Mollie. It wasn't our idea, actually, but she caught her mom kissing Mollie one evening about two weeks ago when we thought the girls were asleep. Mollie and Deb had been out for the evening and Mollie was driving, so she dropped Deb off and came in for a nightcap. After the drink, she was saying goodbye when the older daughter comes out to tell her mom something. She was a bit shocked, to say the least--this was not just a peck on the cheek--but we sat her down after a rather embarrassed Mollie left and explained the situation. She took it all in and asked if Mom was going to leave Dad. I guess that's what she was thinking and worried about more than anything. If Mom loved someone else, was she now going to divorce Dad? must have been gnawing at her during the short discussion. Anyway, she understands now, at least she seems to. We told her NOT to tell her sister because she might have a more difficult time accepting this aspect of her mom's life. Actually, I think it makes her feel a bit grown up that she knows something her sister doesn't, sort of like knowing the identity of Santa Claus, I guess.

I hope she is as well-adjusted as she appears to be. Our talk when she caught Deb and Mollie was the first time she talked about sex in front of me, which I think is something considering she's only twelve. The only time she got really embarrassed was when Deb mentioned my daughter's first orgasm as a sort of reference point for her to understand how different sex can make one feel. ("Mommmm!!") I assured her it was okay and natural and I think that helped. Now I am hoping Deb doesn't mind my talking about this, but oh, well.

By the way, not that it matters, but are you male or female? I'd always thought you were male, but something you said in your last post makes me wonder if I'm wrong.

nihpuad · 20-07-07 07:38:26

chta919 wrote:

By the way, not that it matters, but are you male or female? I'd always thought you were male, but something you said in your last post makes me wonder if I'm wrong.

I'm male (Bill). I could easily get all paranoid wondering what made you think otherwise , but I'm guessing I know: I talked about how I wish I'd taken your approach with my daughter, and you probably imagine that sort of conversation taking place between a mother and daughter. You're probably right: It probably would've been my wife, rather than me, who would've had the talk... but since it was hypothetical anyway, and I was expressing my own wishes, I just put it in first-person singular without thinking it through.

And now that I've heard about your older daughter's discovery of the Mollie situation, I'm more convinced than ever that y'all are raising girls who'll be extremely well adjusted. In one fell swoop, she's begun learning not to be homophobic, and also that sexual feelings for an "outside" person do not mean you stop loving your partner. Both of these learnings would, no doubt, horrify the prim guardians of so-called morality, but I think they show great wisdom.

Now, I find the fact that Deb and Mollie were snogging in front of you almost as interesting as your daughter's discovery of them. Does this mean things are... less compartmentalized... than originally? Ahh, but that really is too nosy a question, isn't it. Feel free to tell me to buzz off. It's just that I envy y'all's life almost as much as I admire your parenting.

Last edited by nihpuad (20-07-07 19:50:38)

nihpuad · 20-07-07 19:49:24

nihpuad wrote:

I find the fact that Deb and Mollie were snogging in front of you almost as interesting as your daughter's discovery of them.

I was reviewing this posting in my head last night after going to bed, and I realized that my use of the word "snogging" probably comes off sounding a bit flippant. I promise I didn't mean it that way; it's just that I've been re-reading the Harry Potter books, and sometimes the vocabulary of what I'm reading leaks into what I'm writing.

chta919 · 23-07-07 14:24:24

hi, bill. deb here. chuck told me about his posts in case it pissed me off that he was telling things about me and stuff. i wasn't by the way. i feel i should be the one to tell you about these things you question, at least as far as i'm comfortable. you see, it wasn't a making out kind of thing. it really was just a goodnight kiss after some fun. it was more than a peck though, and i don't mind kissing mollie in front of chuck since it sort of gets things going for him to. we don't get passionate though. i mean it's not as if we were groping each other in the living room. when our daughter came out of their room to talk to me i was as shocked as her. she actually stopped in mid sentence and left the room. she is a very sensitive girl and i think she was embarrassed for all of us but the worst part was that she cried. i really don't mind discussing this at all. chuck has reminded me more than once since we joined this site that we are just two names and someone could read this and walk past us on the street and not know who we are. so you can ask anything you want. i'd rather make sure people don't jump to conclusions. mollie and i are still a separate relationship from chuck and i. chuck understands that even though he still asks me if he can come with us just to watch sometime. i still say no and will probably continue to do that. i've even told him if he gets another man to be with i would be okay with it, but that's not chuck's personality, and he knows i was kidding. although i really would be okay if he was like that. and i would want to watch as much as he wants to watch mollie and me but that won't be happening unless i change alot.

god. everyone on here must think i'm using this forum for a diary or something. it's probably because i was keeping everything so private all my life and the new freedom to talk about these things is sort of like discovering masturbation. you tend to overdo it for a while after that. sorry if this bothers anyone.

p.s. i understand about the harry potter thing. my daughter (the 12 y.o.) just got the last book and is reading it and i can't wait til she finishes it so i can read it to. the younger one is just starting the first one.

nihpuad · 23-07-07 19:51:39

chta919 wrote:

chuck told me about his posts in case it pissed me off that he was telling things about me and stuff. i wasn't by the way.

I'm glad my nosy questions didn't get him in trouble!

chta919 wrote:

you see, it wasn't a making out kind of thing. it really was just a goodnight kiss after some fun. it was more than a peck though, and i don't mind kissing mollie in front of chuck since it sort of gets things going for him to. we don't get passionate though. i mean it's not as if we were groping each other in the living room.

Forgive me; I didn't imagine you were making out like horny teenagers. Based on your posts here, I always imagine your actions as tasteful and considerate. Still, I was pretty sure that any level of passion between you that was detectable to a 12 year old would also be sufficient to "get Chuck going"; I know it would be for me, if I were in his shoes!

chta919 wrote:

she actually stopped in mid sentence and left the room. she is a very sensitive girl and i think she was embarrassed for all of us but the worst part was that she cried.

I can see where her tears would be upsetting, but I persist in my belief that they were the "worst part" of something that is, overall, very very wonderful. What I wouldn't give to have had parents as honest, openminded, and positive about sex as y'all are. (Not that my parents were particularly repressive or prudish, mind you; they just didn't go out of their way to communicate sex-positive notions to me.)

chta919 wrote:

mollie and i are still a separate relationship from chuck and i. chuck understands that even though he still asks me if he can come with us just to watch sometime. i still say no and will probably continue to do that. i've even told him if he gets another man to be with i would be okay with it, but that's not chuck's personality, and he knows i was kidding. although i really would be okay if he was like that.

I'm fascinated with this bi-monogamous arrangement. If I understand it correctly, you've given Chuck permission to play with another man, if he should want to, but not with another woman, and he has similarly signed off on your relationship with Mollie, but wouldn't approve of a male lover? Further, am I right in thinking that you and Mollie are "monogamous" as regards other women? Coming from a purely plain-vanilla marriage, I find it fascinating to see all the alternative relationship configurations that are possible.

I must say, Chuck's willingness to not watch is almost as impressive as his willingness to agree to the relationship in the first place. Personally, I would find the desire to watch very difficult to master, as you clearly understand...

chta919 wrote:

... i would want to watch as much as he wants to watch mollie and me ...

...but I think you might be wise to avoid it, as I think it would be even more difficult to only watch.

chta919 wrote:

god. everyone on here must think i'm using this forum for a diary or something. it's probably because i was keeping everything so private all my life and the new freedom to talk about these things is sort of like discovering masturbation. you tend to overdo it for a while after that. sorry if this bothers anyone.

Well, I guess it's pretty obvious it doesn't bother me! I think anyone who's found his/her way to this site and this forum is by nature at least a little bit voyeuristic. Y'all are living a life I can only imagine; I'm happy you're willing to talk about it, so I can imagine it. No chance of offending me; I only hope my fascination doesn't offend you.

(Hmm... re-reading the above, I realize it might sound like I'm making up dirty movies about you in my head! I really don't mean it that way; only that I'm fascinated by the sense of possibility your story suggests! I promise, I don't even own a ratty raincoat! )

chta919 · 25-07-07 03:52:02

well, another entry into my diary so those not interested can just move on.

i guess i should answer your questions, you are being so polite and all. thank you for assuring me you aren't making up dirty movies in your head about us. i don't guess i would care, you don't have any idea what we look like, as long as it didn't include my girls. that would be to creepy. i have no patience for pedo's. yes when i am with mollie it does get chuck going and there are times we will make love after i've had a date with her. i don't know if mollie is 'faithful' or not. i really don't know how that would make me feel. we aren't exclusive except that from what i can tell she isn't seeing anyone else. she'd like to meet a guy she likes but she's happy with what we are doing, i guess. she hasn't asked to stop anyway and while i like her very much i don't exactly love her. it's hard to explain. i just know that given a choice i would choose chuck over mollie in a heartbeat. i don't really want any other woman because i think it would just create to much to deal with. it was hard enough to get my courage up to do it with mollie. you are right that i would have a problem with chuck finding another woman. i can understand if he were interested in finding a guy because that's something i can't give him. that is his own explanation of him being ok with my relationship with mollie and it is sorta how i explained it to my daughter. it is kind of interesting that she accepts her mom as a sexual person, even one interested in other women sexually but i guess we have accepted her as a sexual person so maybe it's easier. i know i never thought of my own parents as sexual, but they never told me anything at all. if chuck found another woman to be with i would see that as cheating because what he wants from a woman i can give him. i would never even think of being with another man not only because chuck can do everything a man could do to me sexually but because i love him dearly. i just couldn't do that to him. that cheating thing is one of the reasons why i don't want him watching mollie and me. it may be silly but i would wonder if he was getting off more on watching mollie than on me so i guess you could say i am a bit jealous. and before you mention this site and what we enjoy here that is different because the possibility of him or me running into one of these girls is nearly zero. anyway mollie is very attractive and a bit younger than i am. she's in her 20's and i'm in my 30's. she's not like some model or anything, but she's just pretty in a more normal sense. i know i wouldn't be able to enjoy it if he was there. i can also tell you that chuck sometimes has a hard time not being invited in, but he understands. what i mean is he never ever says anything like let me watch or stop doing it. he's not like that at all. i've mentioned to him that i think he sometimes wants to make love when i get home to reassert himself into my sexual life. i tease him about it but he knows i love him. i think you are wrong that i would want to join if chuck had a guy. it turns me on to watch it and i have even looked up some gay porn on the net a couple of times but i don't think i would want the other man doing anything with me. what i would do is have chuck make love to me afterwards, probably to reassert myself into his sexual life but also because it would make me hot to watch it just as it makes chuck hot to know mollie and i just made love.

i hope i haven't rambled to much. take care.

nihpuad · 25-07-07 06:22:54

chta919 wrote:

well, another entry into my diary so those not interested can just move on.

I could carry on this conversation indefinitely, as I guess I've demonstrated, but I suspect the rest of the forum is ready to tell us to get a virtual room, so I'll limit myself to reassuring you on a couple points, and then I'll drop this:

chta919 wrote:

thank you for assuring me you aren't making up dirty movies in your head about us. i don't guess i would care, you don't have any idea what we look like, as long as it didn't include my girls. that would be to creepy. i have no patience for pedo's.

Heaven forfend! Not the slightest hint of an interest in that direction, I assure you! I have this theory that there are some sorts of evil behavior that most of us can at least understand, and others that nobody normal really can. By the former, I mean that (for instance) everyone has been angry, so we can understand how someone might be angry enough to kill, even though we never would ourselves. And all of us have wanted something we couldn't have, so we can understand the impulse to steal. But pedo is the other sort of evil behavior: Nothing in my experience provide any context whatsoever for even vaguely understanding that impulse.

chta919 wrote:

i think you are wrong that i would want to join if chuck had a guy.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that; I meant that if you let Chuck watch you, he might find it frustrating, if not impossible, to just watch and not join in... or more precisely, I'm pretty sure I would, if I were in his shoes.

And now I'll thank you (both of you) once again for being so frank and forthcoming in this conversation. It really has been enlightening for me; I hope it's been "good for you, too."

-Bill

padraic · 25-07-07 18:56:57

chta919 wrote:

i don't know if mollie is 'faithful' or not. i really don't know how that would make me feel. we aren't exclusive except that from what i can tell she isn't seeing anyone else. she'd like to meet a guy she likes but she's happy with what we are doing, i guess. she hasn't asked to stop anyway and while i like her very much i don't exactly love her. it's hard to explain. i just know that given a choice i would choose chuck over mollie in a heartbeat. i don't really want any other woman because i think it would just create to much to deal with. it was hard enough to get my courage up to do it with mollie. you are right that i would have a problem with chuck finding another woman. i can understand if he were interested in finding a guy because that's something i can't give him. that is his own explanation of him being ok with my relationship with mollie and it is sorta how i explained it to my daughter. it is kind of interesting that she accepts her mom as a sexual person, even one interested in other women sexually but i guess we have accepted her as a sexual person so maybe it's easier... if chuck found another woman to be with i would see that as cheating because what he wants from a woman i can give him. i would never even think of being with another man not only because chuck can do everything a man could do to me sexually but because i love him dearly. i just couldn't do that to him. that cheating thing is one of the reasons why i don't want him watching mollie and me. it may be silly but i would wonder if he was getting off more on watching mollie than on me so i guess you could say i am a bit jealous.
i can also tell you that chuck sometimes has a hard time not being invited in, but he understands. what i mean is he never ever says anything like let me watch or stop doing it. he's not like that at all. i've mentioned to him that i think he sometimes wants to make love when i get home to reassert himself into my sexual life. i tease him about it but he knows i love him. i think you are wrong that i would want to join if chuck had a guy. it turns me on to watch it and i have even looked up some gay porn on the net a couple of times but i don't think i would want the other man doing anything with me. what i would do is have chuck make love to me afterwards, probably to reassert myself into his sexual life but also because it would make me hot to watch it just as it makes chuck hot to know mollie and i just made love.
i hope i haven't rambled to much. take care.

Hi. thank you for being so honest. I can't help wondering how you'd feel if Chuck really did start bringing a guy home. It's one thing to be liberal theoretically, but it can be a lot harder when it's about to actually happen. Also, if you know in advance that Chuck has little or no interest in other guys, you know that it's a potentially upsetting situation that in reality you'll probably never have to face. Chuck has managed it, but I wonder if it hasn't been at the cost of suppressing hurt feelings.

Without judging anyone personally (I'm far too human myself), I can't help questioning the wisdom of having outside partners of whatever sex or orientation when one is in a committed relationship. In my experience, the consequences are significantly more likely to produce unhappiness in the long term rather than happiness. Intimate involvement, even if it starts off as a friendly exchange of pleasure, doesn't always stay that way. People can grow very attached to their once-casual partners, and want more than the other person is prepared to give. And while it's great to have pleasure, at some point one might ask, at what cost?

I guess to me, as a monogamous married person, I've pledged my emotional and personal energy to one special person. I might be attracted to someone else (and often have been). But for everything there is a consequence, and we can't always foresee what these will be. When children are involved, it's certainly better to be honest than to sneak around (children figure things out anyway). It just seems to me that the potential costs to one's family in terms of confusion, jealousy, hurt feelings, and so on, would greatly outweigh the benefits of scratching a particular itch, no matter how alluring it might be. Again, I'm not judging anyone in a negative way as a person. I do question the long-term wisdom of extramarital partners, though.

momentextase · 25-07-07 22:29:30

@Chuck & Deb
Thanks for your great and thoughtful posts, you two sound so in love, that's so cool. Also, sounds like you must have really super communications and I am so impressed how you have such "ownership" of your relationship(s). This is a thought provoking thread, I may share more thoughts when I have more time, just a few thoughts for now.

For the last 20 years I and my g/f's have all had more than one sexual partner in our lives, one thing I have learned is that the way that sexuality manifests is unique with each individual, relationship, couple, or group of lovers and friends.
Anything can work!!-monogamy or not -as long as there is honesty and communication. It is not a "zero-sum" thing, although people will often frame relationships that way.

When I talk of honesty, another thing I learned is that self-honesty is primary, how can one be honest with another person if they are not honest with themselves. And also be able to express your sexual "truth" to the most important people in your life?

For some people, having more than one sex partner, or their SO having that, is just not the way the way they are, that is not their truth, and that is OK!

But for others, it is not only possable, but it is a part of their sexual being that they have sexual relationships that can fall outside of the "norm" of this society.
And that is OK too.

I really did not even start to understand any of this until I met a woman about 20 years ago who got me self-honest, got me into my body, and made me realize things sexual and relationship wise are not black and white, and that there is no "script" to what will work or not, although dishonesty at any level is the one path to ruin. I suppose she grew me up and taught me respect.

I lost her after 10 years to terminal cancer, but it was the most honest, splended, committed relationship I had up to that point, after living most of my life strictly within the bounds of what society calls "normal", going through a failed marrage, a series of selfdestructive rebound relationships after that, etc. etc, etc. Too soon old, too late smart.

Since then, after the grief of letting her go, I have another similar relationship, something I thought would be impossible, I could not imagine being more committed to anyone else after her, but it happended. Life is abundant.

She was "bi"..( my current g/f is too) and she introduced me to the whole universe of including more that one partner, within a primary relationship. It was challenging for me, but she was such a great mentor. Not swinging exactly, although what we did was a bit like that , not poly exactly, although there was an aspect of that also. I suppose "bohemian" may be the best description-simple sharing with friends, and sharing with each other through that.

My current g/f and I have the same kind of relationship. In both these long term relationships, sexually we mostly did/do things all together, which is not like Chuck and Deb. But I can understand Chuck and Deb's relationship because in my relationships sometimes my g/f, or I, would want to go one on one , if only to avoid the distraction a "threesome" or "moresome" or a "lot moresome" can be. Also, there may be all kinds of other factors that come up...my point is that all is possible as lond as everyone is on board. I can see how Chuck and Deb can make it work, been there and done that, it is about boundarys. We always know we each give each other a "veto" if there is something uncomfortable that comes up, for any reason.

Anything can work as long as the people involved are honest, and willing to do the work of keeping checked in with each other, keep the boundarys sorted out and compassionately formed, respect each other sexually and in all ways, and communicate!! Communicate, communicate communicate. If honesty and communications goes wrong, no relationship -monoganomous or otherwise- will fare well. As current divorce rates demonstrate.

About children. Chuck and Deb, I think you are doing it right, Again, it is about communications, and does not have to be so much about sex at all, as it is about being as open as possible, and understanding of the confusions children can naturally have, and answering those specific anxieties. All our "friends" have the most well adjusted, aware, and just plain amazing kids, and I think it has to do with the respect, clarity, honesty and empathy of their parents. Also, I think the best protection from predators for children is appropriately open communications between parent and child about sexuality in general. Forearmed is forewarned.

I love these types of threads, because it provides a great venue for discussing these issues, and I love seeing all the different ways people have found to express their sexuality, and how thay have found to "live" that, I really learn from that.

nihpuad · 25-07-07 22:51:03

I meant to bow out of this conversation gracefully, but I feel a bit guilty that my nosy (though well intentioned) questions have exposed Deb and Chuck to this sort of scrutiny. I'm quite sure they can speak for themselves (if they choose to), but I'll throw in just a few thoughts:

padraic wrote:

It's one thing to be liberal theoretically, but it can be a lot harder when it's about to actually happen. ... Chuck has managed it, but I wonder if it hasn't been at the cost of suppressing hurt feelings.

That's just the thing: It's not theoretical for them. Presumably Chuck knows by this point whether his feelings are hurt... and nothing we know about him from his posts here suggests that he'd be any less than frank with his wife if they were. Personally, I trust the two of them to be open with each other about these things... especially given the openness they've displayed here.

Your analysis seems to presume that a person's capacity for intimacy is finite and indivisible; while I don't question your feelings on that matter, I'm not sure I accept that as a universal truth. Further...

padraic wrote:

I can't help questioning the wisdom of having outside partners of whatever sex or orientation when one is in a committed relationship. In my experience, the consequences are significantly more likely to produce unhappiness in the long term rather than happiness.

...given the way the word "consequence" is typically used, this sort of language suggests (which you repeat later, as well; forgive me if you didn't mean it this way) that sexual pleasure is somehow inherently guiltworthy. I think the notion that sexual intimacy can't remain "a friendly exchange of pleasure" is a bias of Western culture. Sadly, I'm afraid it's often a self-fulfilling bias, which is why I'm so pleased that Chuck and Deb are teaching their daughters, both by their words and by their example, to think more freely about this issue.

padraic wrote:

I guess to me, as a monogamous married person, I've pledged my emotional and personal energy to one special person.

Well, I, too, am a (currently) monogamous married person, but I'm pretty sure I'd be comfortable in Chuck's situation. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'd be pleased as punch, if I thought my own wife would be interested. Because I've pledged my "emotional and personal energy" to her, I can't imagine denying her something that would give her joy.

YMMV, as always.

immagikman · 27-07-07 07:07:45

May have been a nosey question...or not, Deb and Chuck chose to respond...I find their candidness refreshing. I am also happy when a couple can find something that works for them and keeps them both interested. So I will add that I found the whole conversation positive and very interesting.

chta919 · 30-07-07 23:02:34

Wow. Chuck here. Interesting the turns this thread has made. Deb and I are indeed committed to each other. But I am no Superman or anything. I am not jealous of Mollie at all, but if Deb met a man she wanted to "date," I would not agree to that at all, for all the same reasons Deb mentioned in her post about if I met another woman. There is a jealousy, but not where Mollie is concerned. She is just a very open person.

I can understand and appreciate Padraic's response. I can imagine that with a different woman, I would not be as secure, I suppose. The one thing Deb and I have is the communication that has been mentioned. I've been in relationships that lacked that, and I would not have been okay with this situation with those women. Deb tells me everything, not just about her times with Mollie, but everything, not hiding anything or attempting to make something bad look good. And I do the same with her. Furthermore, my relationship with my daughters is better as well. They see us being honest and open with each other and doing other things that show unrelenting unwavering love for each other, and they know I am always honest with them as well. They view their mother the same way. I cannot tell you how Deb's talk with our older daughter has caused that relationship to blossom.

I don't know. Perhaps 98% of the human race is made up of people who find that such relationships as Deb and I have are destructive in the end, even when they are tried with an open mind. I have known of other relationships that ended badly when a "swinging" lifestyle was practiced, regardless of what could be defined as "swinging." Still, I believe Deb and I are in the 2% minority in that situation. Perhaps it's because I am monogamous and am happy with that and am also happy that Deb has what she wants as well. I know for a fact that she isn't lying to me or herself when she says she would leave Mollie in a heartbeat if forced into a choice.

I would not knowingly jeapordize our marriage; neither would she. If we see this going in that direction, which I sincerely doubt, we will address that then. She gets her one night a week with Mollie, and I get a fun night with our girls, such as miniature golf, movies that Deb will take them to again, pizza by the pool, etc. May I echo Lou Gehrig? "I feel like the luckiest man in the world."

blissed · 31-07-07 01:50:59

Chuck if it works for you thats great. It's not really what you call the relationship, but the people in it that define it and make it work. I can only see you failing if the people change in some way, but from what you describe, I can't see any of you changing from considerate to inconsiderate, so your gonna continue to be happy I think :)

.

chta919 · 31-07-07 04:24:44

thanks to everyone who has written responses to this. i won't really get into it much more than i have already except for this teeny bit. chuck told me to check this forum and you can consider his answer to be mine. we are happy this way. as i said before i wouldn't leave chuck for mollie or anyone. i don't even care if mollie sees someone else, which i think says everything about it. we are lovers but i would say we aren't in love at all. mollie said after i told her about this forum and how we were sort of a part of it all that i have a good take on what we are all about. i am happy and mollie is happy and chuck is happy and as far as i can tell my daughters are happy. thats all that matters.

padraic · 31-07-07 08:04:58

nihpuad wrote:

That's just the thing: It's not theoretical for them. Presumably Chuck knows by this point whether his feelings are hurt.

I agree. Chuck is managing it, as I said. What I wondered here is what could happen if yet another person were introduced into the equation, i.e. if Chuck decided to have a male 'friend with benefits'? This is the theoretical part that probably won't happen here because Chuck doesn't happen to have the same interest in his own sex that Deb has in hers. But with other couples, this could be a further complication.

nihpuad wrote:

Your analysis seems to presume that a person's capacity for intimacy is finite and indivisible; while I don't question your feelings on that matter, I'm not sure I accept that as a universal truth.

I don't believe that the capacity for true intimacy is finite at all. But Deb herself says that she and Mollie are not in love; they are friendly sexual partners. Is this intimacy? In a sense, yes, but it's not what she shares with Chuck, which is a much more special kind of relationship she shares with only one special person. It's Deb and Chuck themselves who have chosen to limit deep intimacy to their own relationship with one another.

nihpuad wrote:

Well, I, too, am a (currently) monogamous married person, but I'm pretty sure I'd be comfortable in Chuck's situation. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'd be pleased as punch, if I thought my own wife would be interested. Because I've pledged my "emotional and personal energy" to her, I can't imagine denying her something that would give her joy.

Are joy and pleasure the same thing? It would be caring, not cruel, to say no to some things people think they want, e.g. a bareback gangbang in a cheap hotel. I know this is extreme and not what you meant, but haven't we all desired things that turned out not to be good for us?

I think it's wonderful that Deb and Chuck are one another's primary, committed partners. I certainly can't say that their choices won't or can't work out. I just worry that theirs is a wrong track for a committed couple to take.

Thanks to both of you, Chuck and Deb, for your courteous and honest responses. You may really be in the 2% who can make this work, if it's truly workable over time. I know you wouldn't knowingly jeopardise your marriage, because you tell us so and you're very honest and sincere people. I guess in life, though, it seems that it's what we don't know that can hurt us in the long term -- things we never anticipated in a million years, like our FWB falling deeply in love with us or vice versa, or our children's reactions years from now. And it's the unforeseen that people often regret. Enjoyment is great; we all like it. But sexual novelty and desires aren't needs in the same way that we need food, air, and love. Desire is a positive thing; it's not 'bad'. It's all in the context. To me, extramarital involvement is a risk not worth taking, something like playing with fire in a forest. As careful as we are, we just can't tell where all of those sparks are eventually going to land. You seem like really nice, ethical people who are committed to honesty and to one another. I wish you guys all the best. I would only urge caution and thoughtfulness to all of us where our most treasured relationships are concerned.

nihpuad · 31-07-07 22:13:18

Every time I think I'm out...

padraic wrote:

they are friendly sexual partners. Is this intimacy?

Why not? I believe intimacy comes in many forms, and is not restricted to one's One True Love. There are a whole spectrum of human relationships that entail some degree of intimacy. While one sort of relationship may be more intimate than another, it does not (IMHO) follow that the intimacy of either relationship is any less real.

padraic wrote:

Are joy and pleasure the same thing?

Not necessarily, but isn't it nice when they are? In fact, I think there probably is almost always something joyful about physical pleasure itself... but of course, acts that are pleasurable may be other than joyful for other reasons. Usually the only reason sexual pleasure is un-joyful is that it's the result of acts that are somehow illicit; permission, in such cases, can ensure that joy and pleasure are the same thing.

Pretty succinct, by my standards, eh? This is interesting philosophical ground, but if you want to pursue it further, I suggest we (a) take it to another thread, since we've strayed pretty far from the topic "Sybian" and (b) make it a general conversation, and give poor Chuck, Deb, and Mollie some peace.

padraic · 01-08-07 03:54:24

nihpuad wrote:

...and give poor Chuck, Deb, and Mollie some peace.

Not to mention ourselves and the rest of the forum!
Seriously, it can be good to hear others' points of view and to give some thought to our own, though maybe you're right that we've gone pretty far off topic.

chta919 · 01-08-07 14:49:24

since i am the one who more or less got us off topic, i will make one last comment then get us back to where we started.

first, thanks to padraic and nihpuad for your comments. chuck and i do take the idea about sparks and where they can end up serioiusly. your concern is appreciated. at the moment we are happy and we will continue to work to stay happy.

second, how expensive is a sybian, anyway?

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