bob and ifm

ngaio · 06-04-09 01:37:53

I just have to say that I LOVE how protective everyone here is of our contributors. Sure, maybe it means less "freedom of speech" and all but I think it is so important that we keep this website a safe space for contributors and encourage only kind and supportive words - which is exactly what they deserve.

neukgraag · 06-04-09 02:02:50

One thing for everybody to keep in mind is that the contributors here on IFM are not porn stars, but ordinary women who lay it all on the line for us here and that makes them very vulnerable. Porn stars have thick skins and are probably smart enough to not even read the comments. However, our contributors have real feelings and can be hurt easily and therefore need protection.
Also, this is like a private club, it is not a public place and therefore the moderator has every right to throw people out who are asinine with their comments. There is no such thing here as freedom of speech.

ngaio · 06-04-09 02:22:09

Well said!

blissed · 06-04-09 02:35:16

Yeah neukgraag I think what your saying is essentially correct, but I think you'd agree that no-one who's involved in erotica should face abuse just for doing that. This forum isn't private, it's public and can be read by anyone in the world and hopefully since it's been here it's played a part in spreading that message a little.

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ngaio · 06-04-09 02:49:14

That's actually something that really excites me about IFM... I have a fantasy that oneday, historians will look back on websites like this and see it as a turning point in attitudes about erotica and the people who make it.

adele_w · 06-04-09 04:41:59

I suspect 'pornstars' might have 'real' feelings too. Unless they are sex robots or anime characters.

Whoever you are - subscriber, contributor, moderator, staff member, pornstar, rockgod, comedian, fairy princess, lizard - shouldn't dictate the level of good will, tolerance, empathy and respect that you bring to this particular community. Talk is just hot air but real communication is an art form that everyone is equally responsible for progressing.

richard · 06-04-09 04:56:40

ngaio wrote:

I just have to say that I LOVE how protective everyone here is of our contributors. Sure, maybe it means less "freedom of speech" and all but I think it is so important that we keep this website a safe space for contributors and encourage only kind and supportive words - which is exactly what they deserve.

We have freedom of speech, but not freedom of abuse.

gala · 06-04-09 05:24:31

Nicely put, Adele. Whilst I understand that it's important for the few of the site's contributors (and staff) who write here to feel safe in this space, I think the level of 'protectionism' has the potential to extend beyond necessity. There are good reasons to protect our contributors from things that are obviously purely slanderous - which, I think, is less because they are contributors and more because they are people. But when it comes to debate (even that which is most heated), I'd like to think that most of the ladies who appear both on the website and in the Forums can pretty much hold their own. I also don't personally find that there are terribly many people who turn up here and think they can disrespect contributors because they are contributors. I can count on one hand the occasions upon which it has been clear that a member of the site has devalued a contributor because s/he feels her to be less of a person simply because of her work here. In fact, I find the opposite to be the case most of the time - the level of 'respect' paid to contributors here often borders on the sycophantic.

Perhaps some of the discordant behaviours and attitudes displayed on the Forum have origin in its subjectivities of purpose. Can we really say 'the Forum is for x, y, and z' and expect everyone to conform to that? Whose job is it to say what the space is for? Is its tone and content directed by all those who contribute to it, by those who police it, or by those who pay to host it? I personally don't find it to be a social space - I wouldn't come here to make new friends or anything like that - that's what social networking websites are for. What I always came here for, even before I appeared on its pages or laboured for its existence in exchange for a wage, was the creation of collaborative space for the discussion of issues relating to sex, sexuality, art, pornography, etc. There are particular codes of behaviour that create respectful spaces for talking about such things, which are vulnerable for even the most publicly sexual of beings, and in order for constructive discussion to continue those codes need to be enforced. That would be true whether we met here when we felt like it or met in a physical room once a week to do the same thing.

So maybe it's a matter of what you're here for, and whether or not you're gonna get that, which sometimes takes a bit of trial-and-error. If you're here for 'free speech', which is sometimes a euphemism for 'permission for me to be an insensitive dick', you are certainly not in the right place. The Forum rules are blatant about this, and even if you don't agree with that, if you want to get something out of this ongoing and potentially fascinating discussion space, it's something to keep in mind.

midnightcat · 06-04-09 08:11:27

Gala, I think there are two main reasons why people sometimes turn nasty on the forum. One, as you say, is that a lot of people are used to indulging their lack of manners on the Internet and consider it a right. The other, more complex one is that people are affected sexually by the IFM videos, and that opens a lot of cans of worms for many people in terms of self-esteem issues, sexual hangups etc, so they post on the forum in a tone that can be worshipful (for which read: infatuated) or can be neurotic, greedy, aggressive etc. IFM offers a new paradigm in terms of porn viewing as well as porn film-making, and you're bound to find that people don't know quite how to react. I must admit that when I see you or Bobby posting on the forum I have to make an effort not to think about the films you have made, because those films have impacted on my sexual imagination. Of course, these problems exist in our 'real' lives as well – with both men and women, saying "You're really sexy" risks provoking the response "So that's all I am?"

gala · 06-04-09 08:48:05

midnightcat wrote:

I must admit that when I see you or Bobby posting on the forum I have to make an effort not to think about the films you have made, because those films have impacted on my sexual imagination.

Can I ask why? (Why you have to not think about them, that is.) If you don't mind sharing publicly. Or you can just answer me privately. But I am curious about how our work impacts how we are read in the Forums - I will never be on your side of things so I don't have that perspective, but I'd really like to understand. I am fully ok with whatever reason you have, and promise not to give you a negative reaction even if it's 'because when you masturbate you look like an idiot but when you write you seem really smart'. I'm just genuinely curious about the psychology of that. Thanks.

blissed · 06-04-09 18:22:22

richard wrote:

ngaio wrote:
I just have to say that I LOVE how protective everyone here is of our contributors. Sure, maybe it means less "freedom of speech" and all but I think it is so important that we keep this website a safe space for contributors and encourage only kind and supportive words - which is exactly what they deserve.
We have freedom of speech, but not freedom of abuse.

Exactly.

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midnightcat · 06-04-09 18:54:35

Gala – the honest answer is that desire gets in the way of intelligent communication on my part. It distracts and confuses me and makes me want to flirt and flatter instead of making sense. Part of my brain appreciates the difference between contexts and insists on appropriate behaviour – but another part is smitten with desire. I suspect this kind of emotional conflict troubles some other people who post on the forum, especially if they are frustrated in their personal lives.

The underlying cause is that IFM allows for an unusual kind of emotional sharing, quite different from that between a conventional porn 'star' and her viewers: the person on the forum is literally the person in the films, with no 'acting' (or very minimal 'acting' that is a spontaneous response to the camera), and so what the audience sees is far more like real intimacy than it is like familiar porn. Adjusting to that emotionally, for the viewer, is a learning process. The fact that it's not straightforward, and that the forum discussions are not straightforward, reflects the degree to which people's awareness is being changed.

blissed · 06-04-09 18:59:00

gala wrote:

I wouldn't come here to make new friends or anything like that - that's what social networking websites are for. What I always came here for, even before I appeared on its pages or laboured for its existence in exchange for a wage, was the creation of collaborative space for the discussion of issues relating to sex, sexuality, art, pornography, etc.

Social networking is different from a simple social space like a pub or workplace or this place, where if you do make any friendships they happen naturally and spontaneously. Yes this is a collaborative space to share ideas, and that makes it a social space because behind an idea there's a person and when you read someones ideas in their own words you start to meet them. The people are the most important part of a forum. Your not gonna make 398 friends here tho :)

gala wrote:

I also don't personally find that there are terribly many people who turn up here and think they can disrespect contributors because they are contributors. I can count on one hand the occasions upon which it has been clear that a member of the site has devalued a contributor because s/he feels her to be less of a person simply because of her work here. .

when they do thats what moderators are for.

gala wrote:

In fact, I find the opposite to be the case most of the time - the level of 'respect' paid to contributors here often borders on the sycophantic. .

Most of those are just made up by me, (it gives me something to do) their not real members.

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blissed · 08-04-09 17:39:29

blissed wrote:

gala wrote:
I wouldn't come here to make new friends or anything like that - that's what social networking websites are for. What I always came here for, even before I appeared on its pages or laboured for its existence in exchange for a wage, was the creation of collaborative space for the discussion of issues relating to sex, sexuality, art, pornography, etc.
Social networking is different from a simple social space like a pub or workplace or this place, where if you do make any friendships they happen naturally and spontaneously. Yes this is a collaborative space to share ideas, and that makes it a social space because behind an idea there's a person and when you read someones ideas in their own words you start to meet them. The people are the most important part of a forum. Your not gonna make 398 friends here tho

Been thinking about this today when I was shopping, I think the most noteable people to become friends here where Burlesque and Elfman, 2 members, one of whom was a moderator. At one time people had almost real time conversations about anything and everything, then social networks came along and provided a much bigger alternative outlet for all that energy, leaving the forum more on topic but with far less of a community.

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gala · 15-04-09 06:16:24

midnightcat wrote:

Gala – the honest answer is that desire gets in the way of intelligent communication on my part. It distracts and confuses me and makes me want to flirt and flatter instead of making sense. Part of my brain appreciates the difference between contexts and insists on appropriate behaviour – but another part is smitten with desire.

I find it quite difficult to put myself in your shoes, and I suppose that's understandable since I'm very far into my part of this role-play. One thing that doesn't connect for me is why you (and I use 'you' in a non-accusatory, general, but specific-if-you-care-to-answer-for-yourself sort of way) would want to flirt and flatter, which are things one often does when one wants to experience intimacy with someone else. By the time you get to the Forum chances are you've already seen my work, and therefore experienced at least part of the intimacy you've described, so my logic would say that there'd be no need to flirt / flatter to get those things. So I guess I wonder why you'd be compelled to flirt / flatter, or what you'd hope to get out of that. But maybe it's just as simple as 'I think you're cute, and I can't help it'. Which, as a person in the world (a particularly sexy world that I've been intentional about creating and participating in), I can totally get that bit.

For a very short while a few years ago I was lurking around the www.nofauxxx.com Forums. There's a particular lady there called Avarice (who, coincidentally, appeared once on www.ishotmyself.com) who I thought was super cute and smart and things, and I lived in the same neighbourhood as her and saw her around once in awhile as well. And my impulse was totally to flirt with her. But then I also think that's because she was doing the sort of things that I wanted to be doing in the sex world, and I saw her as a possible co-conspirator and collaborator and a peer of sorts, and perhaps in a different context (like all those times I saw her at local events) I could have addressed that, but instead I just lurked around in the Forums on the website she was naked on and never said peep. I think that's the closest I've come to what you're experiencing, midnightcat, and at least you manage to say intelligent things and engage conversation. That's a much better response.

midnightcat wrote:

The underlying cause is that IFM allows for an unusual kind of emotional sharing, quite different from that between a conventional porn 'star' and her viewers: the person on the forum is literally the person in the films, with no 'acting' (or very minimal 'acting' that is a spontaneous response to the camera), and so what the audience sees is far more like real intimacy than it is like familiar porn. Adjusting to that emotionally, for the viewer, is a learning process.

I dunno if 'literally' is the right word, but the gap may be smaller between the screen presence and the one in text than what you'd experience with someone working in the mainstream. But even that varies with the individual contributor - I've come and gone and come again. Ha.

But you're right, it does have the potential to be closer to 'real intimacy' than the other things available to the paying consumer of erotic content on the internet. And what I'm into in regards to intimacy is the meeting of minds. I actually find things like flattery to be overbearing and difficult to deal with, and that's why I don't receive it well. The biggest compliment you can pay me if you like my work is to talk to me about it, to have an intelligent conversation with me about the things you get out of it and the things I get out of it and that's the same thing I expect from someone who fucks me - and I suppose credit is due to this particular space for that whole thing even being possible. The folks here who I really do share any sort of 'intimacy' with are the ones who do that, who can step up to an actual conversation - which to me is a lot more flirtatious than things like 'wouldn't I love to give you a helping hand with that next time, love' or other occasional fleeting drivel that does happen here from time to time.

But that's just me. And I am only one contributor out of many who may respond totally differently to such things. That's why you and I are having this conversation. Cheers for that.

midnightcat · 15-04-09 23:30:43

Hi Gala. Thanks for getting back to me.

I actually posted a further comment that was deleted, so I honestly apologise to whoever found my remark offensive (it was a comment about me, not about the site) – I think that illustrates the fine line between honesty and too much information here. Also, it's possible my posting disappeared for some technical reason rather than being deleted on purpose.

Yes, I don't mean 'flirting' with a view to getting any particular favours. I mean the things you might say to someone you've just made love with, to express your own pleasure and delight and wish to deepen the intimacy. Backing off from that requires a dose of reality that dissolves the fantasy world I am in when I watch the IFM films – not because they are fantasies as such, but because any world in which I might be intimate with the contributors exists only in my dreams.

This is a good opportunity for me to thank IFM for brightening up my winter. Severe lack of funds forces me to cancel my sub for a while, though I'll hopefully be back later this year. Thanks to all of you, film-makers and contributors, for teaching me so much about female desire and pleasure, for letting me share some moments of precious joy, and for letting me relive some of my own younger days. You rule.

I'm not sure when my sub will run out, so I may post again in the next few days – but if not, all the very best. You have my admiration, respect, gratitude and, of course, desire.

blissed · 16-04-09 00:10:29

I can't see your name in my little file of deleted posts, there are a few people who mod to cover 24 hours and I'm sure they had the best intentions when they torpedoed your post :) but thanks very much for apologizing midnight, your always welcome here.

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gala · 16-04-09 01:28:09

Sorry to see you go, midnightcat, I've really enjoyed conversing with you here. I find it a bit frustrating that the delete-happiness that seems to come in waves around here has affected the course of our discussion - I would have loved to have known what your other comments were and based on your level of discourse here I would be surprised to see you overstep 'the line', but since I'm not the arbiter of what that line is and find it harder and harder to anticipate what it looks like, I can only wonder what else you had to add. In any case, thanks for your honesty about your own responses to what you see and read here. It's not terribly often that someone has the self-awareness to analyse things like this and you seem like an intelligent, healthy, expressive human. Hope to see you again.

ngaio · 16-04-09 02:28:23

Just wanna say that I hope you can make it back sometime soon too, Midnightcat. Thanks so much for your support and interaction here!

blissed · 16-04-09 04:15:47

gala wrote:

delete-happiness that seems to come in waves around here.

I'm never happy to delete posts. Ages ago someone insulted you specifically on the forum and I left it where it was because I figured you'd like to tell them to fuck off, which you did. But not everyone wants to do that. I screenshot what few deleted posts there are and send them to Richard to get his feedback and if you want me to send you some I will, it's no problem.

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#26 06-04-09 01:37:53

Re: bob and ifm

#27 06-04-09 02:02:50

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#28 06-04-09 02:22:09

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#34 06-04-09 08:11:27

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#35 06-04-09 08:48:05

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