pick me up, artists

viva · 01-03-12 00:26:02

I see your point, Blissed, about the "normalizing" of lying to get sex being a problem - and I think you're right. I just still cannot imagine condoning this being a prosecutable act. I just don't think any amount of law is going to force people to feel self-confident, and a lack thereof is why people lie. In the context of dating, self-inflation ("I'm writing a book") is exactly the same to me as compliments for the sake of manipulation ("I like your tie.")

Let's put it like this. Would you prosecute a woman for date rape if she stuffed her bra? Maybe he wouldn't have gone down on her if he didn't think she had that size breasts. Maybe when he got her shirt off, he felt betrayed, dismayed, let down and confused. Is she to blame?

blissed · 01-03-12 01:38:13

Yeah "Before I sentence you, you must realise that stuffing your bra is a very serious contrivention of the 1978 wieghts and measures act as amended 2014."

and the naughty fibs act of 1968

We all know that someone who looks gorgeous isn't immune from being emotionally vulnerable or clinically depressive. I'm thinking of people who are charming con artists who find someone they think looks gorgeous, unconcerned wether they're emotionally vulnerable who say they are everything you admire (easily found on your fb) who fabricate those things (easily forged short term online) they say you are fantastic and for 4 days you think they are and your in love and your life has changed, but on the 4th day they fuck you and say goodbye and get kudos for writing about their exploits with pics on a forum. I think as things stand even if their victim nose dives intio depression and kills themself the con artist has no case to answer, Even though they've admitted what they've done in detail.

If these worse cases were prosecuted as sexual fraud and psychological bullying they would send a message down the line that open season has ended. The media would mention all the things you have and more, like if this happens where will it end "Dying grey hair to be made illegal" "Hitler nanny state in our bedroom" but in a way that's good because the message will be open season for serious deception had ended and later things will settle down and all the little fibs though a bit of an insult aren't prosecutable but would happen a little less I think and because the worst cases were prosecuted that would deter people from going near that line as the age of consent laws do now. Though I think the criteria for setting that line would rest on who was agreived and an assessment of harm done rather than a fixed line as with the age of consent.

I'm pretty sure this kind of serious deceipt is regarded as exacerbating circumstances if the victim is under age, so the assessment criteria and legal precedents are there to develop and from which to draw legal authority. Actually in the UK we'd have got a naughty fibs act if the silly party had got in in 1968.

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Last edited by blissed (01-03-12 02:16:56)

artemesia · 01-03-12 13:38:23

i just wanted to share a quick story about my form of negging. Years ago, I had a friendship with an amazing but uber manipulative girl. She was superb in her ability to control me and the relationships I was having, from convincing me to start dating a guy I hated (ahhhh teenage rage, he bet her she couldn't convince me, but tad-dah)to later convincing the entire neighbourhood that he was a potential rapist. Like I said she was superb. It was art. I have never felt so played and betrayed in my life, but it took me years to realise what had happened, and to question everything and all the times we shared. But that's not my story. In fact it's much quicker than the intro, but oh well...

There was a lovely boy I wanted to date and she simply told me to tell him that I couldn't be friends with him if I couldn't have a romantic relationship and it worked. We dated for 2 weeks or so, but he was completely right, I was a little bit out of control at that stage, and he was a bit too private school for me. I have to add, her source book was Linda Goodman's love signs. It essentially gave her the broad outlines of the strategies to employ to manipulate anyone (it covered a bunch of relationship types ie business, partnership, friendship etc).

I now have trust issues with gemini's...

Nowaysis · 01-03-12 16:30:26

artemesia wrote:

I now have trust issues with gemini's...

That makes me so sad to hear...

's okay though. I have trust issues with most people.

artemesia · 01-03-12 22:23:00

@Nowaysis; Well it suffices to say that a guy showing genuine interest in me who proves with time and interest that they are a good egg, I'll still date. One of my happiest times was seeing a Gemini Guy in New York while I was there. I think Gemini's have lots to recommend them, but I am a little wary.

I just don't know about negging, I kinda feel a little impervious to stunts like that, maybe because of the above past experience of manipulation. But, genuine interest, and some real smarts, will basically win me over everytime.

WLV612 · 01-03-12 23:14:49

Again, I apologize for riding in at this point in the topic and I should read all the posts so I'm not out of sync but pick up lines or strategies or any of the other reindeer games have never been my style. I am what I am and see no reason to project anything other than that.
To quote "The Boss", 'Yeah, I ain't nobody's bargain.....' however, anyone who'd be swayed by false lines is going to see through them in time and if they don't, then perhaps I'd be on the losing end.
It took a long time for me to discover who I am and it's too late in the game to try to change.
So, no. Don't use lines and if any have been thrown at me, I was probably too dense to realize it at the time.

blissed · 01-03-12 23:28:12

Welcome back WL

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WLV612 · 02-03-12 01:38:02

blissed wrote:

Welcome back WL
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Thanks! It's been agony reading the posts and sitting on my incredibly insightful......uh, insights.
I'm clueless, out of touch and in the way but you guys are great fun. So, if I'm totally lost ya' gotta at least applaud the effort. Right?
Seriously, if you've been a member of a site where the interchanges are so liberated (Best term I could think of at the moment.) and put a face to a name, 'cause the folks here are uber-cool, when you're outside looking in, it's a bummer.

Liandra_Dahl · 02-03-12 04:04:19

A lot of men and women use manipulation and falsehoods to get sex and/or relationships whether they're verbal, visual or behavioural. This is a somewhat extreme and repellent example of it but it's not rape. If saying you wrote a book to get someone into bed is date rape then what is a metric truck tonne of make-up and chicken fillets in your bra?

Rape...when sex is forced on another person against their will and without their consent is hard enough to get dealt with appropriately as it is. I kind of feel that calling this (undoubtedly shitfull) behaviour rape belittles what rape actually is. I'm not saying there isn't some potential for it to be recognised as criminal perhaps. You could call it fraud, yes, but not rape. Financial fraud is not called armed robbery is it. It is called fraud.

Last edited by Liandra_Dahl (02-03-12 04:05:28)

blissed · 02-03-12 12:51:36

I'm not calling all this shitful behaviour rape. just recommending that at it's most extreme it can't be used as another means by which a rapist can achieved the same objective. I think at the moment it can.

I'm not suggesting prosecuting someone for simply lying about writing a book on it's own and then having sex with someone. For me theres a clear distinction between makeup and lying about writing a book. between making something the best you can and cynical deception.

So I would define fraudulent rape as many such cynical deceptions directed at a vulnerable person with a clear intent to victimise.

And I think with a law in place to protect people from that, it would likely have a by product of sending a signal all the way down the line that (at least for a while) makes that more minor behaviour hopefully a little less shitful.

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Last edited by blissed (02-03-12 13:04:57)

WLV612 · 02-03-12 14:05:57

blissed wrote:

And I think with a law in place to protect people from that, it would likely have a by product of sending a signal all the way down the line that (at least for a while) makes that more minor behaviour hopefully a little less shitful.

Liandra_Dahl wrote:

Rape...when sex is forced on another person against their will and without their consent is hard enough to get dealt with appropriately as it is. I kind of feel that calling this (undoubtedly shitfull) behaviour rape belittles what rape actually is. I'm not saying there isn't some potential for it to be recognised as criminal perhaps. You could call it fraud, yes, but not rape. Financial fraud is not called armed robbery is it. It is called fraud.

Two well stated points. Very good. Oh! The joy of intellect at work! Really miss this when I'm off.

viva · 05-03-12 00:36:46

blissed wrote:

I'm not calling all this shitful behaviour rape, just..[...]..as another means by which a rapist can achieved the same objective.
So I would define fraudulent rape as many such cynical deceptions directed at a vulnerable person with a clear intent to victimise.
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Oof I think I really have a problem with this language. I don't know why but rape, rape jokes, the word 'rape' and the idea of 'the rapist' have been in my intake pump lately - lots of articles about triggering rape victims, and whether rape humour is okay or not - and with all of that and Liandra's point above I just want to state that to me, a series of deceptions is not a violent, physical act of rape, bears no similarity to it, and I think - as Liandra says - that it blurs and belittles the seriousness of what rape truly is. Being overpowered physically is not something someone could make a descision to avoid. Rape takes away a person's freedom of choice completely. Sleeping willingly with another person, whatever your decision is based on - even if it's based on lies - is avoidable. You still have responsibility for making that choice.

To me, calling someone a 'rapist' is an extremely serious allegation which could define and ruin them for the rest of their life. When that person is intentionally pulling out their artillery on the casual-sex singles battlefield, they may be a jerk, an asshole - but they are not rapists, whether you like that mode of sexuality or not. They are not using "another means" besides physical rape to achieve the same objective. They are trying to achieve sex, not forced, violent assault.

They are dancing the dance of courtship, which often and unfortunately involves puffing ourselves up to a size double that of our normal stature. It involves lying.

I know that you're trying to prove a point and qualify it, and I also think it's not right to deceive someone into having sex with you, but I cannot condone the use of the words 'rape' and 'rapist' in this context at all...

WLV612 · 05-03-12 00:50:42

viva wrote:

They are dancing the dance of courtship, which often and unfortunately involves puffing ourselves up to a size double that of our normal stature. It involves lying.

Well stated.

ashmedi2 · 05-03-12 01:00:35

Deceptive or untruthful can ruin and even kill an innocent victim ... In Canada there have been a number of convictions for "aggravated assault" (Think that was the charge) where a man coerced a woman into unprotected sex where he had lied about or denied he was HIV Positive. In some cases the women contracted the disease and at the same time, a death penalty ...

viva · 05-03-12 01:14:14

Yeah. I think I addressed that earlier - in cases where one partner lies about having a fatal STD it is simply another story - not comparable to rape or to pick-up artistry. IMO. But rather as you say, prosecutable as murder.

blissed · 05-03-12 02:54:32

viva wrote:

Rape takes away a person's freedom of choice completely.

That's a good point. I agree. It is the wrong language. But agrivated sexual assault is probably closer. Thanks Ash.

In a trap someones freedom of choice is an illusion, but a trap needs a sting where your overpowered, and date rape fits that description.

Where the illusion is maintained until the act is over, and the sting for the victim is when the act is over too, it's fraud. I don't think we're talking about casual sex among singles but a place that's conflated with that, where people who are vulnerable of either sex are bullied.

I think if you can prove that the Mens Rae was to deceive by providing an illusion of choice and the fraud sting was serious enough to cause distress, it would be the level of distress and it's seriousness that would qualify the offence and wether it could be serious enough to be considered as criminal.

If there was a high profile case like this it might have the effect of moderating general shitty behaviour by altering the relativity in peoples minds, even though they're very far from commiting a criminal offence. A bit like having a highway code makes everybody a more considerate driver.

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Last edited by blissed (05-03-12 11:25:44)

richard · 14-03-12 02:54:24

Who has seen Magnolia? Tom Cruise's character runs a class for picking up women, and he does a great job of it. He's perfect for the role - smug, short, and dislikable. Those scenes are some of the best in the movie. I highly recommend the whole film.

aven frey · 14-03-12 07:36:02

Good call Richard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2IVF9a2IA

Respect the cock and tame the cunt boys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCEYxs7k … re=related

Denise the piece, you have been warned.

and finally

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MtWvYwk … re=related

I am batman.

blissed · 14-03-12 13:01:02

Wow what a good part for Tom Cruise post his scientology embarassment.

I like this from Cruises wikki

Tom Cruise Wikki wrote:

Cruise criticized actress Brooke Shields for using the drug paroxetine, an anti-depressant to which Shields attributes her recovery from postpartum depression after the birth of her first daughter in 2003. Cruise asserted that there is no such thing as a chemical imbalance, and that psychiatry is a form of pseudoscience. Shields responded that Cruise "should stick to saving the world from aliens and let women who are experiencing postpartum depression decide what treatment options are best for them"

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Last edited by blissed (14-03-12 13:10:00)

HollyWood · 15-03-12 05:28:43

lol blissed. GO brooke shields. Tell that creepy, dislikable, ancient-alien believer!

Liandra_Dahl · 21-03-12 13:33:35

Brooke's response is gold! bahahahahaha...

I still don't think the "aggravated sexual assault" is an appropriate term for this behaviour either Blissed. That is appropriate for those knowingly infecting another person with an incurable and fatal disease, as it was used originally in this thread but I don't think this is an assault.

I'll say it again. If I lie to you to take your money I did not assault you. I lied to you and took your money. I conned you. I think the most appropriate term if we need a legal term for this behaviour is sexual fraud.

If this behaviour goes from being considered unethical and in bad taste to criminal shouldn't we also consider it criminal when women do such things? For example when they say they are on the pill when they are not (I know of numerous occasions when this has happened). Or when they lie and manipulate to get men into sex and then relationships? It seems to criminalise deceitful and manipulative behaviours only in regard of them from men towards women is to be rather too paternalistic towards women.

Last edited by Liandra_Dahl (21-03-12 13:36:07)

blissed · 21-03-12 19:35:46

It would cover all genders and sexual orientations and be for cases

blissed wrote:

where people who are vulnerable of either sex are bullied.

Sexual fraud would be a good title.

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Last edited by blissed (21-03-12 19:53:18)

ifeelalive · 22-03-12 00:04:47

Aw crap. I still haven't figured out how to do this very well. I keep losing my text when I quote. Well, anyway, I'll just restart here:

Nowaysis wrote:

I have nothing to add here other than that I find the whole thing absolutely revolting. I wish I could just laugh at it, but whenever these pick up "artists" are brought up in conversation, I just feel grossly misrepresented as a member of the male gender and want to run them all over with my self righteous steam roller of high horses.

I am 100% with Nowaysis.

I'm not an expert, Viva, but I would like to remind you that the internet "seduction community", though real and quite disturbing, could hardly be described as "huge" in the grand scheme. It's a bunch of emotionally stunted twerps that hang out together in a narrow pocket of the internet because they're stuck in adolescence and can't make it in real life adult relationships. Maybe 1/1000th of 1% of all men using the internet? I have no idea. Don't forget the other 20-40% of men that don't even use the internet. Whatever the number, there are thousands of "non-seduction community" men for every one of them. I have quite a few years of broad and deep life experience, and I cannot say that I've ever known a real live PUA/SC, and certainly not amongst my friends. I simply couldn't relate to a fellow male with that mindset, let alone befriend him.

I, too, believe that rape doesn't fall in the same category as deception or fraudulent behavior.

I've been around the block, down the street, over the river and through the woods probably more than I deserve. I feel a little self conscious, though, about the fact that I have a hard time relating to falling "victim" to major deceit. I've just never gotten involved with someone like that. Had some serious close calls, but removed myself in time, though singed alot, once. I do, however, agree that a great deal of damage can be done to an individual through deceitful behavior. I like the idea of "sexual fraud" being legally actionable. Deceitful behavior that involves jeopardizing someone's life, though, is in a category by itself as far as I'm concerned. I can't even be rational about that one, it's so unconscionable. To me, it seems worse than "murder" as we usually think of it. The added factors of betrayal and the intentionally covert nature of that betrayal carried out during what their partner believes to be an act of love just seems so incredibly evil. Anyone else?

viva · 22-03-12 01:14:46

ifeelalive wrote:

I feel a little self conscious, though, about the fact that I have a hard time relating to falling "victim" to major deceit.

Okay, I don't know why you feel self-conscious about this - do you really? Or are you treading gently here as you get to know us? If it's the latter I commend you - it's a graceful way to enter a community. But I am curious about the legitimacy of feeling self-conscious when it comes to not relating to people who are gullible and hurt by their gullibility.

I want to explore the idea of the responsibility of the victim of deceit and how deceit differs from true force.

Possibly I need some help developing my idea and I'm going to be offensive if I don't get some, so my apologies in advance...

Alright. Part of me feels that if you walk through the world without a healthy dose of cynicism informing your choices, it's your own damn fault when you end up wiring money to Nigeria, putting in 60 hours a week at the firm without any potential for upward movement, dating a guy who says he's an author but who never seems to write, trying to find gullible on the ceiling, paypal-ing the rest of your income to Invisible Children, etc etc etc.

The other part feels that it's not your fault if you were born less intelligent than others - in fact, the idea of an average intelligence necessitates half the population falling below it. But can we avoid responsibility for our choices by claiming "I'm too dumb to have insisted on being fully informed"?

Okay. Certainly a guy who has the wherewithal to join a PUA community (which, as I will show later, exists in more than just virtual culture) and actually study how to pick-up ladies has an advantage over his target, but in the end, aren't they equally dumb? Looking for love, putting their hopes in others... there's a difference between being open to life, and just being completely nondiscriminatory.

When a PUA succeeds, in a way I believe he and his mark are both being punished by the situation. While it may take the form of deceiver/deceived, I think both are looking for something shallow in the place of honesty. I feel really bad saying this. The human being looking for love is the most sympathisable of archetypes - pathetic and relatable, lonely but not giving up. And I love that archetype with my feelings. But my brain says they're idiots.

When my dad gave a fake Russian $1000 to come visit him I felt like he was an idiot. The idea of him waiting for her at the airport filled my heart with rage and sadness - but without judgement, I always felt like he was to blame as much as "her" (actually probably a bunch of dudes and a secretary). People make mistakes and that's okay, it's beautiful even, but the fact that my dad was deceived, the fact that I could understand why and how he let himself be deceived, didn't make him any less responsible.

I'm going to go out on one more limb, even more personal. Victim shaming is a no-no - and that's a rule we make to protect the victims of the world from the assholes of the world. It's a good rule, and a good start, but it doesn't address the intricacies of every situation. When I was in an abusive relationship, I made it clear that I would not accept equal responsibility for what was happening between us, and that was very difficult because I have a hardline on taking responsibility for everything. The thing is that while it was important that I did NOT take responsibility in this case, later I was able to see that my behaviour contributed greatly to making myself a victim. I have a martyr-ish tendency to do so, in general, and being able to identify that makes me a better person. And helps me avoid ending up powerless - as is the lot of the victim.

Powerless, unable to take responsibility for themselves, a victim - no one truly wants to be this. That's why I believe that a victim of physical or coercive force is different from a victim of deception. A victim of deception can almost always prevent being victimized by engaging with the world shrewdly, and checking their facts, whereas a victim of force couldn't have prevented it, literally had no choice.

PLEASE excuse the haphazard nature of this diatribe, I have no time. Later I'll pull out my melbourne local PUA stylees and show you that this phenomenon is not just on the web.

blissed · 22-03-12 13:19:20

I would think most people would say that rape is worse than sexual fraud. But as sentencing is appropriate to each individual case there's likely to be occasions where someone who's guilty of sexual fraud gets a longer sentence than another person who's guilty of rape. As a general rule I'd say the existence of a charge of sexual fraud shouldn't diminish the seriousness of rape or be used as a plea to try and get a lighter sentence. but could lead to the prosecution of some people who would otherwise go free, it seems in many date rape cases there's an element of sexual fraud but there isn't enough evidence to secure a conviction on the more serious charge of rape. And with straight sexual fraud as a single offence on it's own rather than as a component of an offence, I'm thinking more about vulnerable adults as victims, who's vulnerability is seen as a eaasier opportunity for the aggressor than force.

Social workers deal frequently with people who have an emotional and cognitive age of say 10 or 13, but unless they're a danger to themselves and others they can't be certified, (that would take away all their freedom and mean anyone who had sex with them is guilty of statutory rape.) So they're in the community with a mental age of 10 or 13 and only partially supervised by social workers.

Viva on your general point. Most human relations need trust and I think guilt goes to those people who break it, wether it's one side that did that or both. I include as victims people who join gangs or become criminal, who I see largely as victims of their environment. I appreciate when they're shooting at us we wouldn't necessarily see it that way but in hindsight when thinking about how to rehabilitate people I think it's the best view.

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Last edited by blissed (22-03-12 15:35:03)

#26 01-03-12 00:26:02

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#27 01-03-12 01:38:13

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